Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL)
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@kralith said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
overpowered Rul0r
I laughed when I've read that name.
If any Rul0r comes along to annoy you, just give me a call. I'll come help you out and after we deal with Rul0r, we can grab a cup of delicious hot coffee, while Rul0r does a naked run back for his gear. 
I do appreciate them including multiple versions of the same spell. In this way power gap reduces and like @Target already mentioned we get a lot more spell combos to use, which only makes everything more interesting.
Horizontal all the way. I can say for myself, I look forward a lot more to learning a "different spell effect" then just getting a same spell with 100 damage more. For me, discovering new knowledge just got incentivized a LOT more.
It increases theory crafting possibilities which I enjoy a lot, and lets new players be a lot more competitive at the same time.
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@grofire How is making the game fairer for everyone catering exclusively to hardcore PvPers? Fractured has consistently never been about vertical progression and it's confusing to me why someone who's been around as long as you have, and presumably knows this, would be disappointed by this news especially since up until yesterday, it seemed common knowledge that skill upgrades would be minor.
it feel like AO all over
AO has a single server and vertical progression which both seem to be things you want. If neither of these games cater to you, then maybe you just don't like sandbox MMOs?
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Edit: I skipped the second page...big mistake XD
I am excited by the idea of getting alternative versions of a spell via the upgrade system. Effectively, giving us 1,200 skills for the price of 400. My cold little munchkin heart is gleeful for the extra degree of control and specialization.
I - any one here remember Secret of Mana? (Seiken Detsu 2?) Standard ARPG for the SNES (now available on steam! but I digress). Anyway, you leveled up you magic by casting spells, and things changed as you leveled them up - the Hail spell dropped bigger ice balls on enemies, for example. Anyway, eventually (with a fair amount of grinding), you got your spells to level 8..and then you hit a hidden random chance, and the spell goes nuclear XD Literally, in the case of 3 spells. Fireballs become Flame Dragons, Earth Slide summons a nightmare mudball that grins at you before demolishing your enemies. The visuals are insane, and at the initial playthrough, entirely unmentioned and unknown. It Blew My Mind, is what it did. Made one heck of an impression.
Of course, these were actually a bad thing - most people figured out that you can stun lock a boss by timing spell casts properly, but the "Super Spells" prevent that due to how they work, which means the bosses could sudden get at you. Even if you liked the damage boost they gave, it wasn't worth it, compared to the ability to keep the boss from potentially one-shotting you (certain SoM bosses Did Not Mess Around XD).
But the sheer unexpected OMG WTF BBQ moment the first time it happens, I can't even explain how awesome it was. I literally leveled up all my spells to 8 just to see what the new rare effects, even though they were worse over all. They rarely disappointed.
I've been told that I can now get that feeling, 800 times. I AM SO UP FOR THIS. OMG You have no idea. Even if I never use anything other than level 1s, I want to see all the neat things that are being planned.
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@gothix said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
@kralith said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
Horizontal all the way. I can say for myself, I look forward a lot more to learning a "different spell effect" then just getting a same spell with 100 damage more. For me, discovering new knowledge just got incentivized a LOT more.
It increases theory crafting possibilities which I enjoy a lot, and lets new players be a lot more competitive at the same time.
Yup, doing all that work for to get from R2 to R3 and just get more dmg is boring. Getting a different version wich synchronizes better with the gameplay I have in mind can be so much more rewarding.
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As a PVE player, I'm sure a lot of people would expect me to want the extra damage. After all, extra damage means I can kill the wildlife much faster, right?
Nope. I'm thrilled at this decision. I'm so tired of Themeparks that require you to get ever increasing firepower to go from killing "juvenile bears" to "sickly bears" to "mama bears" and finally to the big boss "daddy bear". I am soooo looking forward to horizontal progression, and now it appears that as I do skill tasks I get different versions of the skill so I can decide which version fits my play style best. Yeah!
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@jetah said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
@gothix
The principle is these are testing numbers and not finalized numbers!I have to agree with Jetah. It is also why a bunch of us chose kickstarter options that would give us alpha access. Play testing will be key.
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@target the developer promise no grinding too, but like @Jetah said many times, it doesn't mean their will be no grinding for materials... every thing need to be balanced, you can't follow an empty understanding like "horizontal progression" with out thinking what it will do mentally to the players...
as as i said before to @Benseine and to you, this will just make people to not go and get the rest of the other spells, why risk going demon planet? just build your character on t1 spells, since they have no upgrade... people need to feel the achieving something by doing quests and runing in the game, i do not mind the progression to be small but changing it to get no progression make no sense.
the only people that will think this change is good (before the last version was even tested) was only the hardcore PVPer and this will serve only them, since you just jump to the game new player or new character pick the cookie cutter build of the meta, and that it you can roll out...@target said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
it feel like AO all over
AO has a single server and vertical progression which both seem to be things you want. If neither of these games cater to you, then maybe you just don't like sandbox MMOs?
if it both things i want why im not there ? if it seems i want to play AO why im asking to not making it like AO or better just go and play AO ? the only games i play are sandbox mmo, all the rest have no interest to me, and its weird that you saying something like this, since it seems that you never played an mmo, caused if did, you know that one need to feel the game before doing such drastic changes, that will effect how people playing the game or what they feel.
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@gothix said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
I laughed when I've read that name.
If any Rul0r comes along to annoy you, just give me a call. I'll come help you out and after we deal with Rul0r, we can grab a cup of delicious hot coffee, while Rul0r does a naked run back for his gear. Awwwwww
!
It will be a big fun for us, while we chill with our coffees and see how the Rul0r will cry like a kid.I will provide the coffee, because in supporting i am great
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@grofire said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
the developer promise no grinding too, but like Jetah said many times, it doesn't mean their will be no grinding for materials
Jetah and the devs are using different definitions of grinding. At least understand the context and meaning of what the devs are trying to communicate before assuming they're wrong about their own game.
why risk going demon planet? just build your character on t1 spells, since they have no upgrade
Because someone with an optimized build will perform better than you in both PvE and PvP. With the more horizontal system, any advantage you gain will be from your ability to construct a build, which is greatly more rewarding and interesting than pure numerical advantages.
Did you ever play Guild Wars 1? In two of the campaigns, you would hit max level by the end of what was essentially the tutorial island. At that point your main form of progression was unlocking skills. It was really fun exploring the world to find new skill trainers hidden away in remote outposts or hunting monsters that had skills you didn't. It's the most satisfying form of progression I've experienced, and I'm very happy Fractured is doing something in the same spirit.
you know that one need to feel the game before doing such drastic changes
The people who have "felt" the game, the devs, seem to have tested it and decided it's not the direction they wanted to take their game, and have changed it to align more with their design principles, which, up until two days ago, we've been assuming they've been following all along. This change isn't as drastic as you're painting it.
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@gothix said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
Reducing CD and scaling up damage is just inappropriate for horizontally marketed game (even if scaling would be low).
This would be horizontal "ranking up" (an example):
Axii's Sun Strike:
(all ranks 120 mana cost, all ranks 15 sec CD, all ranks 520 damage)R1 ignores targets fire resistance
R2 adds a slow effect to targets
R3 never misses the targets - (hit chance based, not players aiming miss)(Higher rank does not include benefits of previous ranks, each rank effect only works for that particular rank.)
And then player chooses which rank to slot on his skill bar depending on what he needs for particular situation.
Player could slot R1 of Sun Strike for fire resistant mobs, or R2 for melee mobs, or R3 for evasive ghostly mobs. Depending on what ranks are available in his spell book of course (what ranks he already learned).
I know I'm a bit late to the party - but I really like the examples because they're adding something different to the spell at every level rather than just taking existing numbers and making them bigger.
I'm not sure about the sequence though. R1 seems a little bit OP to me. But as a general example, yeah, I think that's a really good way to think about it. Not even from a horizontal vs. vertical game design perspective, but more from an interesting vs. boring game design perspective.
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@target said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
@grofire said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):
the developer promise no grinding too, but like Jetah said many times, it doesn't mean their will be no grinding for materials
Jetah and the devs are using different definitions of grinding. At least understand the context and meaning of what the devs are trying to communicate before assuming they're wrong about their own game.
why risk going demon planet? just build your character on t1 spells, since they have no upgrade
Because someone with an optimized build will perform better than you in both PvE and PvP. With the more horizontal system, any advantage you gain will be from your ability to construct a build, which is greatly more rewarding and interesting than pure numerical advantages.
Did you ever play Guild Wars 1? In two of the campaigns, you would hit max level by the end of what was essentially the tutorial island. At that point your main form of progression was unlocking skills. It was really fun exploring the world to find new skill trainers hidden away in remote outposts or hunting monsters that had skills you didn't. It's the most satisfying form of progression I've experienced, and I'm very happy Fractured is doing something in the same spirit.
you know that one need to feel the game before doing such drastic changes
The people who have "felt" the game, the devs, seem to have tested it and decided it's not the direction they wanted to take their game, and have changed it to align more with their design principles, which, up until two days ago, we've been assuming they've been following all along. This change isn't as drastic as you're painting it.
It's all BS... I will not reply anymore, I will try it in the pre Alfa, if I like it, then good if I don't then I try to find other game, this is how I done with AO and this how I do with all games, or you like it or you don't.
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@grofire You can't create a new character and have all +400 rank1 skills at your desposal for an instant cookie cutter build. You need to rediscover and learn them again on your new char.
