The Lich vs. the Angel and Abomination
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Everyone has their own opinions on the Angels and Abominations. From what I can see, the majority of people in this community (to include me) love the idea. However, what about the Lich? Does it live up to your expectation? Can it measure up to the Angel and Abomination in your mind?
I for one find it kind of lacking. Maybe it's just the indoctrination of what I believe the Lich should be interfering with the way the devs would like me to interpret it. In some stories the Lich is a master of magic that wants to pursue the unknown and is on the whole 'neutral', but in most of the stories I have read, they are portrayed as evil beings that have forsaken their humanity and that of others to pursue selfish desires like ever-lasting life or resurrection of a loved one at the expense of another.
I can see what the devs are trying to do.
Bad to Good = Angel.
Good to Bad = Abomination.
But what is the opposite of neutral? Extreme? Which way does that extreme go? Good or Bad? Or maybe its Extremely Neutral (i.e. the 'neutral' version of the Lich). My questions for everyone in the Fractured Community is -- Is the Lich the ideal option in your opinion? Is the embodiment of death the approriate representation of a neutral party? If so, why? If not, what other creatures/forms do you think would be most appropriate and why?
Leave your answers below!
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Liches are neutral in the sense that karma is completely irrelevant to the process of becoming a lich. They aren't champions of neutrality like angels are supposed to be champions of good. They can be any alignment. The only common ground liches share between one another is their willingness to sacrifice their bodies for their powers, regardless of the evilness or goodness of their motives.
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@target said in The Lich vs. the Angel and Abomination:
(...)sacrifice their bodies for their powers, regardless of the evilness or goodness of their motives.
I have been a little surprised, since my vision was that they not only sacrifice part of themselves, but also sacrifice/consume souls of others (by which they gain power). That's why I would have assumed them to be evil, but I'm fine with them working as neutral for humans in Fractured.
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@logain The morality of using souls can fit within Fractured's logic for karma:
If killing evil is considered an act of good, it would seem that using an evil soul would be an act of good or at least have no effect on karma. Killing neutral creatures probably won't be considered evil; using a neutral creature soul would be like killing a deer for its food or hide - an act of survival. Killing neutral players is considered evil and so would using their soul. And obviously using a good soul would be an act of evil.
It gets iffy with aggressive or thief flagged neutral players, and the PvP spotlight doesn't make it clear if killing them is consequence-free (it just says you can hurt them without consequence).
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I always see the Lich as an evil being.
So maybe humans should have 2 options.
If a human turns evil it can become a Lich, but if the human turns good they can become a Satyr (for male) or Nymph (for female).
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@evolgrinz That would be interesting. I was also entertaining the thought of a Vampire until I realized that they are already a race. Yeah, sounds weird but vampires are not inherently evil. In a bunch of stories and old tales, you usually find both good and evil vampires. Those who reject their cursed nature, and those who embrace it. Dracula sold his soul to the devil for power and set a curse upon the humans which he chooses. The first-born were all humans that desired power and accepted the curse, but after that a lot of innocent humans that rejected it got turned. That led to good and evil factions. Now not all stories are the same, but they usually end up with factions.
I guess what I am trying to say is, it would be pretty cool to have the Neutral Humans have a vampire curse, and that curse also forces them to either embrace their nature and be a terror of the night and a blight to the humans or reject their nature and live in harmony.
However, all this is hypothetical because the demons already have a vampire race, so it would not work.
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@galdaen i do not think lich is the "Extremely Neutral" postion, its represents, the desire for knoledge.
i would love a state of "Extremely Neutral" that will be different for every race.
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There is no "good" and "bad", everything is relative and depends on the angle you are viewing it from.
Good for one, can be bad for other, or irrelevant to the third. "Good" and "Bad" are just human inventions to be able to portray to others how they feel about something.
Therefore this whole discussion is pointless.
(What is generally portrayed as "good" and "bad" in human society is just based on majority opinion and on laws (that were again forced on people by majority viewpoints about how it should be, but all that is not absolute, it is just an opinion valid for majority of humans, and means nothing in the bigger picture.)
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In classic RPG's, there are two sliding scales which each character falls into.
Order and Chaos
Good and EvilIt's possible to be Orderly and Evil.. think Dark Elves from Everquest, or Warhammer. Or the Nazi's from our timeline.
Chaotic Good is also possible.. Robin Hood being the classic example. Thief and an outlaw, but performing morally good actions.
As for your question, I suppose it depends on how the developers want to interpret the Lich. I personally see a Lich, and Necromancy in general as a force of Chaos. It is at odds with the order of the universe, and natural law so to say. Morality of each individual Lich should be up to the player to decide.
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I completely disagree with this. Morality is not subjective. But we're getting off topic.
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I think D&D is the game that gave such great fame to the lich, and it also included non evil or even good ones -> the Baelnorn and the Arch Lich, for example...
After all, becoming an undead mage/priest is just a means to an end, not an end in itself.
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I think, in the context of the game...If "Human" is an absolute freedom, then Lich is going to be a loss of that Freedom in return for knowledge/power - that you've given up some choices in return for greater strength - a Human that has made their decision. Even if this is accomplished by sacrificing self, or others (which, in the karma system, is not necessarily evil -- sacrificing evil things is Good, by game context, so you could go to Tartaros, kill a demon, and drag them over to your home Altar of Sacrifice, no problem [in the eyes of the Gods, anyway; neighbors might complain])
I was sort of thinking about the other side as well (And spoke poorly) about someone who has, in this context, given up their freedom for the sake of others - labeled it "saint," but the faun and satyr option is equally good.
For powers, maybe a walking damage field, and regen field? damage magnifier (if you are in the field, you get hurt more - lich excluded) and defense up field? point being, it is always on, and non-targetting - everyone in it gets the effect, ally or enemy. Really handy if your lich stands alone in enemy camp, and really handy if your saint is among friends, but problematic in reverse, to say the least. really stress the choices made via game mechanics.
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I would generally consider a lich Evil.
In the game they're probably Neutral because karma isn't actually based on morality in this game.
General morality
In most contexts both real and fictional, good and kind are roughly synonymous, as are evil and malicious. Animals do not clearly have either of these traits, which is why we do not see animals as good or evil no matter how viciously they tear each other apart.
Kindness and/or malice towards one's self is also covered by this. Liches are quite blatantly self-harmful both in body (undead) and in virtue (ambition), and therefore Evil even if they otherwise keep themselves to themselves.
Buuuut Liches are also prone to manipulating the bodies of the dead, or making people dead in order to do so, which is EEEEVIL.
Fractured morality
Karma is often seen as an ambiguous force of divine retribution, and Fractured is making this explicit by aligning karma with the divine interests of Arboreus ("Good") and Tartaros ("Evil"), who I presume are godly living planets. That is to say, Good and Evil are euphemisms for which side you're on.
Whatever Arboreus approves of is Good, and whatever Tartaros approves of is Evil. This is why mass-murdering characters (arbitrarily defined as) Evil, including say Demon newborns, is considered a Very Good act when in reality that is what an evil person masquerading as good does.
The condition of Lich-hood does not inherently require an allegiance to either of these planets, though, and therefore a Lich is likely to be allowed any (pretend) alignment they want.
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@gothix I understand that for IRL but the problem here is that the Angel and the Abomination are clearly outlining a good and a bad for the game. So to stick with the theme, the neutral should also be outlined
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@dulu said in The Lich vs. the Angel and Abomination:
Morality is not subjective.
Your version of morality.
Someone else may view it differently.@galdaen said in The Lich vs. the Angel and Abomination:
@gothix I understand that for IRL but the problem here is that the Angel and the Abomination are clearly outlining a good and a bad for the game. So to stick with the theme, the neutral should also be outlined
Fractured strives to be more sandbox then theme park, so "freedom" will be left for each player to decide. Freedom to view each individual player as good or bad, regardless of alignment they chose
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For example, Klingon Empire had their morality, their views what actions are good and bad, and then came the federation and wanted to enforce own different version of morality, good and bad to Klingons. Each society can have completely different morality, this is why good and bad is relative, and is only valid as your own opinion for yourself, or a group if there is a group that upholds same principles as you, but in greater sheme, good and bad are imaginary terms, they do not exist as some universal truth.
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Also since Elyseum or either of 3 planets are not Earth there is no need to force Earth philosophy onto those planets, just because we are playing this game.
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@galdaen i have talked about this in this thread https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/5485/the-half-way-races
i do think neutral should have champion, but @Prometheus said that they do not plan do so. if we want a champion for the neutral order, we should speak up, since the developers are listening, and changing the game for the pleasure of the players.
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The Lich is actually tempting me away from my plan to play as a demon.
I really enjoyed the necromancer in Diablo II, and if Liches get bonuses to necromancy and magic abilities as discussed in the Q&A (subject to game balance, of course) then that might pull me across to Syndesia.
Currently happy with my plan for a tanky hellfire demon and switching to Angel in my endgame. But I'll be watching the Lich closely as it gets balanced out to see how it comes together.
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@grofire Thats one of the purposes for this post. I wanted to spark a discussion and hear the ideas of others. What they think would be the best neutral champion and their opinions so far.
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@galdaen I'm not sure they should have a single champion - humans having freedom implies them actualizing into multiple "pinnacles," as opposed to the beastmen and demons having only one path (possibly back and forth, but...).
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I like the idea of a lich yes, but I was kind of hoping the transformation of human would go another route, given that it's a steampunk technology that the humans use, and they can integrate the technology into their own forms, I was hoping more for a Clockwork Borg style creature for human transformation.
