NO tank mages
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@jarek said in NO tank mages:
The problem with the Tank Mage is that mages traditionally have very powerful offensive ranged spells and can do good direct and AoE damage. The tradeoff for this being that they are physically weak, with relatively poor defences (although some games provide them with magical shields, they still cannot wear armour and still cast effectively).
A Tank Mage has both the powerhouse magical damage abilities or a mage AND the strong defensive ability of the Tank
Incorrect; a tank mage will be halfway between both and excel at neither as their stats are split between offense and defense. This will make it a significantly less viable option.
The invincible tank mage problem only occurs when too much focus is given to gear as the bulk of a character's defense but innate power as the bulk of a character's offense. Magic is usually disproportionately powerful compared to physical attacks and thus this problem will be more obvious in a magical tank than a physical one (though it affects both in many MMOs, which often have a "fighter" or "berserker" class that is just way too good both in damage and HP/defense score.)
Ragnarok Online, a game that is nearly 20 years old, solves the problem of OP magic in general through interruption. Most magic skills in Ragnarok Online (and several physical skills too!) have a cast time, and if anything successfully hits the user during the cast time, the skill is interrupted and they have to move away and start over. Naturally, this means a tank mage will be unable to cast most of their spells as being a tank means they will be taking hits constantly.
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@fibs I agree with you that it should not be possible to have an amazing offensive and defensive capability as there needs to be a trade-off. In my book anything that has both is a Tank Mage as the term was coined in games like Acheron's Call where you could build literal tank mages (Mage offensive, Heavy armour defences). Now that anything could be a melee fighter, a magic one or a hybrid... it's the damage & defence combination that is problematic. And as I stated earlier there is a risk that having all magic tied to Int makes it the most important stat for all magic use and potentially allows for simultaneous magic offensive and defensive capability.
Basically the game needs to be carefully balanced so that overpowering metas are not allowed to occur or everyone will just play the meta.
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It depends on your definition of Mage - do you think about Invocation school (elemental powers)?
I can easily imagine a Warrior that dabbles in Restoration and Enhancing school. This will give him possibility to buff himself and infuse his armor and weapons with elemental power before the fight and then dish out melee damage during the fight.
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@dybuk I think we are getting bogged down in semantics. The point is (if I understand the op's concerns correctly) that any type of character that outclasses all others by being as good as or better in all areas is naturally going to be favoured over the others. This type of character is sometimes referred to as a Mage Tank (because that's what it was in the original game), but in reality it is simply a form of short hand for any combination in a flexible skill system game that is clearly too good in too many domains - and normally the only domains that players really care about are offensive and defensive capability.
So it doesn't matter if it's a warrior enhancing their kit or a Mage with mega shields. What matters is that the system is balanced well so we don't get a few dominant metas that make all other builds obsolete. Ideally we have a system where all major builds function within a few percent of each other not one or two being 50+ percent better.
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I think it might actually be possible to have tanky mages that do a lot of damage. Every school of magic scales off intelligence including the main defensive school of magic (abjuration), the main damage school of magic (invocation), and restoration. Intelligence in general seems to be a really strong stat that offers tons of flexibility.
It'll be interesting to see how the devs balance stats out.
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Well, there is a limit to how many skills you can use at once, so, I'm not sure if you can necessarily benefit from all the schools at once solo. I mean, you have an invoke or 2 for damage, 2 restorations (heal +debuff remover), an abjuration and an illusion for defense (or 2 abjurations), possibly abjuration for spell breaking, and that leaves 1 slot free for an option, if I remember correctly, assuming the mock-ups are followed through on
and that's assuming you don't pack in 1 non-magic damage skill to deal with the magic immune stuff
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we do not know yet how the schools will be distributed. so there is the possibility that take too many schools will hurt you.
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@jarek
Well, yes, but the thing is - to there is no specific classes here and in my opinion to every build you can create an anti-build. If a Mage Tank will become popular, then people will try to re-spec to Mage Killer (Assasination + Illusion + Abjugation for example). And remember - it is easy to change your talents and skills, so you can always adapt to situation.@TheRippyOne - Yes, but there are some schools that allow perma-boost - like Enchanting and infusing elemental powers to items. But I agree, there is no way to benefit from all of the schools at the same time, even if we unlock them all.
@grofire - Well, taking too many schools into your build can botch it, but it won't harm you to try it out. If such a build will suit you and you are able to use it effectively, than there will be no harm in using it. Even if all other people will not be able to use it as well as you. If it does not, you can change it in resting phase.
I think I will try out different configurations and different builds until I find out what suits me and is fun to play for me.
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@dybuk I honestly don't think Enchantments are going to be permanent - they'll be on the spot enhancements on anything that can have a battle effect. Permanently enhance ingredients and materials, yes, but not in terms of gear.
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It has been mentioned in Spotlight 4 - Skills Galore in Enchanting school of magic:
The focus of spells belonging to the school of Enchanting is to infuse elemental powers into items and creatures to create temporary or permanent magical effects.
(...)
Users of Enchanting can even apply its principles to crafting, creating powerful items able to improve the combat ability of the person holding them, which can be subsequently sold or traded.Sorry to burst your bubble.
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@dybuk Kinda like that a lot more then temporary effects. Since it sounds like it could add another small segment to the games economy. Can't argue with that.
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@dybuk No skin off my nose, I don't have to be right. And if you are, more power to you.
I'm just not sure how to make a weapon that's improved by Enchantment but can still be said to be no better than starting gear (which is something else that the devs have said they wanted). I read the phrase you quoted as the gear boosts were temporary, and the potion effects were either permanent, or that the potions are permanently enchanted to create additional temporary effects on use.
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@therippyone said in NO tank mages:
but can still be said to be no better than starting gear
I've been thinking recently that this might be a slight misrepresentation of the gear system. All they've really said is that there is no huge powergap between gear. We know that there is primitive gear (that anyone can go out into a forest and quickly make) that will likely be slightly worse than items that have a more advanced crafting process, and we also know that items can be enchanted with gems (likely what the enchanting magic description is referencing). That leaves at least three sort-of tiers of gear (primitive, unenchanted, and enchanted).
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@TheRippyOne
Didn't mean to be on the offense or to attack anyone. Just wrote that as a sort of joke.I guess it is all open to interpretation, at least until Devs tell us otherwise or we get to play the game itself.
Anyway, the game is still in Pre-Alhpa. Everything can change in any direction.
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My guess is that a tank will need to put a lot of points into Con so he'll probably lose some on DPS stats.
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@dybuk If Assassin's can be Tank Mage killers that will work, but I guess I am worried about the possibility that a single build type becomes dominant because of the nature of the underlying system (stats and classlessness) as fixing it could be very tricky.
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This way, the Assassins will have more viable targets
I know what you mean, but I think we will have to see it in play, to check if anyone is overpowered.
I'm sure that there will be specific builds to different warriors, mages, etc. that will OP them or at least sqeeze out the last drop of DPS, but with this amount of schools and abilities I think there won't be a single, one, unique OP build.
I guess there can be a lot of mages, but not all of them of the same type/skill. Hmm, maybe except the Necromancer - a lot of people seems to be obssesed with dark/undead magic The sheer amount of topics on forums about Necro may indicate it.Anyway, to sum it up -> As of yet I'm not seeing a single build that will overpower all others. I think a lot will depend on the skill of player as well as playing preference with different schools of magic/combat.
And just to mention. There is nothing stopping a warrior from experiencing with magic as well. Only draw back he will have is the lower amount of mana and lesser bonuses.
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I personally extremely dislike rock paper scissors system. I much prefer where all classes are balanced and viable vs any other class.
Otherwise when you meet someone out in the wilds, even before battle starts you would already know who the winner will be. People would chase classes that they beat, and run away from their "anti classes". It's a very dull way to play.
No rock paper scissors system please.
PS: I was following Ashes of Creation with interest for a while, until i saw all the bad choices they were making, but the last drop was announcement of rock paper scissors system. When I saw they announced that, I left and never looked back.
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@gothix as there are no classes you cannot be sure what's the opponent class unless you fight him. There will be some hints based on equipment but for example a melee-mage will probably look the same as melee-nonmage
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@Gothix
I think there won't be a possibility of creating Rock - Paper - Scissors in this game. As @tulukaruk mentioned - there are no classes. Even if "best" builds will happen, I guess there won't be any single kill-all build or single anti-build. I mentioned earlier Mage and Assassin as to point out that there won't be any build better than everything else. It does not matter if it is a Assassin, Ranger or a Warrior - I think every of this builds will be able to take down opponents, given enough practice, thought and player skill.In addition - thanks to the resting phase and possibility to re-spec, you will be able to adjust to any situation.
