The idea that you can get it right at char gen in an mmo (which is always a changing environment) is simply bonkers. There are too many unknowns, esp in a game like this which is all about discovering the unknowns. Add in patches and balance fixes and learning which skills do or do not work and I think there will almost have to be some way to reset or refactor attributes. It may be a limited refactor rather than a complete reset, but it will have to exist.

Hi,
I have just joined after the Kickstarter (didn't know if it's existence prior to that).
I am a long time mmorpg player with numerous and varied experiences, much good, some bad.
My hopes for fractured are that it makes good use of the seamless world architecture, has a good player driven economy (no rats dropping swords please), and that it has some level of questing/story (yes I know it's a sandbox) such that we have lore and a dynamic world with more than just players. I guess I am kinda hoping for Eve without the ships...

Anyway that's enough wish listing! Hi!
Jarek

@Gothix Aha but if the Tank Mage cannot hold aggro, then he cannot be outputting the same amount of damage as his glass cannon mage colleagues and all is good - in that there is a trade-off. The Tank Mage cannot be simply be the best in both spheres - he might be able to achieve a fair level in both, but not on a par with a glass cannon mage.
Or maybe to put it another way I think the OP (and myself tbh) does not want to see a situation where a mage is simply better than a warrior because they can do better in both offense and defence (or visa versa).

I have no problem with a magical tank (i.e. a tank that can hold aggro and has tanking abilities / can soak up damage, but who uses magical abilities rather than a shield and armour to do so) - in the same way that I have no problems with evasion tanks (who rely on a massive dodge chance) as long as they cannot also dominate offensively (such as an evasion tank with huge crit chance and very fast attacks that can melt everything and not be hit).

The point is really that having an awesome defence should be an active choice irrespective of how it is achieved and should not be compatible with having an awesome offense. Having an okay or maybe even good defence and offense is fine as long as it isn't comparable to the specialist routes.

And with so much magic requiring INT, the possibility of a max INT Tank Mage is a very real one, as is the possibility of a max Dex Evasion-Crit Tank.

Thus if I understand the OP, I think his concern is less about having the tools to tank with magic, and more to do with having a simultaneously awesome offensive and defensive capability that skews the gameplay and can cause huge headaches for the devs as they try to level things out such that the one meta does not dominate. This has occurred in a number of previous MMOs (if I recall correctly this could be achieved in Acheron's Call, Elder Scrolls, GW1, and almost certainly others).

Add in the fact that all forms of magic use INT from protection spells through to attack spells and you might find that INT becomes an overly dominant stat anyway. Personally I would like some thought to go into diversification of magic wet stats, such that a single stat is not so dominant. Or some reassurance that you won't have godlike mages with magical shielding spells and awesome magical attacks because they can merrily stack a single stat.

@gothix Man I loved the original TSW! However although there were a near infinite number of builds, there were some that were simply inferior... in other words it was entirely possible to screw yourself over by selecting bad passives, skills without synergy and weapons that were not a good match. It was also possible to create a degree of Tank Mage in TSW in that some builds could have great DPS and healing... but they were actually more balanced than you may think due to the fact that hard alpha strikes would still kill them as they lacked the defensive capability to withstand the raw damage - and I think that was the only true dual role single stat stacking possible. SWL is a poor man's substitute for the TSW skill wheel.

The point being that it was, for the most part, reasonably balanced by design through the talisman system which gave DPS or Tank or Heal bonuses. Meaning if you hybridised you would never be as good as a pure build in the same role even with the same skills.

Fractured however has a stat system that is one step divorced from impact and an apparent skill system that may allow for a single stat stacked build to get the best of all worlds. This is the concern. Basically it should not be possible to create a build that effectively does two roles at an optimum or near optimum level irrespective of how you achieve it... a pure role should always surpass the hybrid in their specialisation.

However without more info on how magic works and how stats influence it, we can only voice our concerns from having played through some pretty badly balanced games.

Oh there really are ways to screw up a character...

The idea that you can get it right at char gen in an mmo (which is always a changing environment) is simply bonkers. There are too many unknowns, esp in a game like this which is all about discovering the unknowns. Add in patches and balance fixes and learning which skills do or do not work and I think there will almost have to be some way to reset or refactor attributes. It may be a limited refactor rather than a complete reset, but it will have to exist.

@gothix Man I loved the original TSW! However although there were a near infinite number of builds, there were some that were simply inferior... in other words it was entirely possible to screw yourself over by selecting bad passives, skills without synergy and weapons that were not a good match. It was also possible to create a degree of Tank Mage in TSW in that some builds could have great DPS and healing... but they were actually more balanced than you may think due to the fact that hard alpha strikes would still kill them as they lacked the defensive capability to withstand the raw damage - and I think that was the only true dual role single stat stacking possible. SWL is a poor man's substitute for the TSW skill wheel.

The point being that it was, for the most part, reasonably balanced by design through the talisman system which gave DPS or Tank or Heal bonuses. Meaning if you hybridised you would never be as good as a pure build in the same role even with the same skills.

Fractured however has a stat system that is one step divorced from impact and an apparent skill system that may allow for a single stat stacked build to get the best of all worlds. This is the concern. Basically it should not be possible to create a build that effectively does two roles at an optimum or near optimum level irrespective of how you achieve it... a pure role should always surpass the hybrid in their specialisation.

However without more info on how magic works and how stats influence it, we can only voice our concerns from having played through some pretty badly balanced games.

I'd like them to discuss how stats impact skills and magic, such that we can get an idea of how viable hybrids and pure magic builds are

@dybuk If Assassin's can be Tank Mage killers that will work, but I guess I am worried about the possibility that a single build type becomes dominant because of the nature of the underlying system (stats and classlessness) as fixing it could be very tricky.

Do you need to clear the whole of a haunted town before you claim a plot in it, or is haunted by district? I think by district would be cool, esp with cities as you could have a range of respawns and types (I'm kinda thinking of Pavis in Glorantha from Runequest tabletop RPG).

Add in the fact that all forms of magic use INT from protection spells through to attack spells and you might find that INT becomes an overly dominant stat anyway. Personally I would like some thought to go into diversification of magic wet stats, such that a single stat is not so dominant. Or some reassurance that you won't have godlike mages with magical shielding spells and awesome magical attacks because they can merrily stack a single stat.

@dybuk I think we are getting bogged down in semantics. The point is (if I understand the op's concerns correctly) that any type of character that outclasses all others by being as good as or better in all areas is naturally going to be favoured over the others. This type of character is sometimes referred to as a Mage Tank (because that's what it was in the original game), but in reality it is simply a form of short hand for any combination in a flexible skill system game that is clearly too good in too many domains - and normally the only domains that players really care about are offensive and defensive capability.

So it doesn't matter if it's a warrior enhancing their kit or a Mage with mega shields. What matters is that the system is balanced well so we don't get a few dominant metas that make all other builds obsolete. Ideally we have a system where all major builds function within a few percent of each other not one or two being 50+ percent better.

@fibs I agree with you that it should not be possible to have an amazing offensive and defensive capability as there needs to be a trade-off. In my book anything that has both is a Tank Mage as the term was coined in games like Acheron's Call where you could build literal tank mages (Mage offensive, Heavy armour defences). Now that anything could be a melee fighter, a magic one or a hybrid... it's the damage & defence combination that is problematic. And as I stated earlier there is a risk that having all magic tied to Int makes it the most important stat for all magic use and potentially allows for simultaneous magic offensive and defensive capability.

Basically the game needs to be carefully balanced so that overpowering metas are not allowed to occur or everyone will just play the meta.

I suspect that gear does "get better", but in a more horizontal fashion than vertical.
Lets say that Iron Armour has an armour value of 25% and negates that much physical damage.
It could be that elementally aligned golden armour has an armour value of 25% vs physical damage AND 50% against its elemental speciality, but -25% against the opposite element (i.e. fire / ice). This might make the armour great for fighting certain builds or monsters and pretty bad against others... but generally the same as iron armour vs the majority. And it might take a lot of rare resources to make.

So is it worth Pvping to get? Hell yes if the person wearing it was doing so because most demons use fire... and so it would be equally useful to a demon for the same reason!!