(looked around, didn't see anything about initial builds in the past 6 months, sooo)

We've known for a while how the attributes are going to work (ie, it's all at character creation, using 'x' points, plus potentially getting 2 more in each stat via a skill in that stat's tree) - I want to do a bit of an analysis, and see if anyone has picked their first stat build? (yes, we've had a "what's your first build" thread, but no one has really talked about how they are going to build towards it)

Further, we know each stat gives a big bonus for hitting 20 - a big damage buff, improved regeneration in hp or mp, big accuracy and evasion buffs, and a large luck bonus.

there are some things to consider - Humans at 120 points, and the others have 100, but with one stat being "cheaper" - encouraging the use of that stat (plus some other non-stat bonuses, because the cheaper stat doesn't quite cover things).

All stats start at 6, and maxes vary by species (but centered on 18), with 10 being the expected average. Stats increase asynchronously - there's a table over here. https://fracturedmmo.com/feature-spotlight-5-character-creation-attributes-resting/

30 points get you to 18 (only 18 for the specialty stat for non-humans), and 10 (6) will get you to 10.

Finally, it is specifically mentioned that having less than 10 Int will hurt everyone due to a penalty gaining Knowledge points (you'll get there eventually, but it is a problem)

So, what does that all mean?

Human ideals are fairly easy
4 18's, 2 6's - min/max ideal
3 18's, 3 10's - nothing wrong, nice balance
3 18's, 1 15, 1 10, and 1 6 - the strongest options if you want to start without a penalty to knowledge (AND Intelligence isn't one of your 18's)
1 18, 5 14 - solid jack of all trades with one bonus

Less ideal, but may fit for a unique build
3 18's, 2 11's, 1 8 - use the 8 on Int, gain the +2 on the int stat tree to avoid the penalty
3, 18's, 1 12, 1 10, 1 8 - for the same reason above
6 15's - jack of all trades, master of none, (none of the bonus' are possible)
2 18s, 2 13s, 2 12- weaker jack with 2 bonuses .

Honestly, I can think of some "class" that would favor one of these options for some build, except the 6 15's. I'm sure someone would like it, but I can't see who, especially when 1 18, 5 14's are available. What do you all think?

Off the top of my head, a focused wizard probably favors the min/max ideal, dump stat'ing Strength and either dexterity, or constitution (probably dex - they need some carrying capacity, and Constitution gives that). A focused fighter might do the same, dump stat'ing Charisma and Intelligence, but I imagine that they'd complain about the slow growth constantly XD A more reasonable build is probably the mixed option, with the 10 on int, 6 in cha, and the 15 set to their least useful of the 4 remaining stats - an archer, for example, would use 15 con, while a tank might go 15 str. Alternatively, the 18-10 is a good dedicated character who isn't useless outside their specialty, and might see some play in that respect. However, the 1 18, 5 14 jack of all trades might be the most useful from that angle - 18 Int, and then use spell boosting and re-skill to bolster your decent stats and play any role you want. The rest are "okay," in my opinion, but it's hard to think of why someone would favor them over those 4, unless they are playing to a very specific sort of character. The Intelligence 8 (+2 from the tree) seem like a poor choice for minor gains in return for having to go pretty high into a stat tree you aren't really using to avoid slow growth/frustration.

@myux Honestly, there are several ways to make gear that is "equally as good" as starting armor, but creates benefits in various ways that make them more valuable to certain individuals - the trick is properly balancing these benefits and drawbacks - how much bonus damage to Martial Arts skills is worth losing 1 point of damage reduction (not much for an in and out style of fighting, quite a bit for a brawler) - is a movement buff worth additional cooldown at some point? (probably not, though it could be worth it for tanks and some warfare users favoring big drawn-out moves, or mages that play with DoT fields or kiting)

Getting this sort of thing is stupidly hard, and it rarely is "right" every time (a light DoT bonus based on initial strike damage might be weak for one player, and exceedingly useful to another, based on things like playstyle and skill choices, for example, before you get into the question of "what's an equivalent de-buff to balance it"), but it seems like the devs are devoted to this sort of balancing for gear - if they get it "right enough" then the gear will certainly be worthwhile, "neutral rate" though it may be by some standard.

In general, I like this idea

I'mma git my cook on!

but there is an issue of "what does it do!?"

I would love to see...call it 8 herbs? and 6 spices? and how you use them in combination, and what foods you put them on, produces different effects. so, there is a certain level of mastery involved in cooking for effect. Like, food has a natural secondary nature that only appears when you season it.

as an example, if you add Rosemary to chicken by itself, you get chicken's normal effect, and chicken's hidden nature applies to the herb's effect (defense, let's say). If Rosemary affects ice/water, putting it on defensive chicken get's you a +1 to defense against ice/water damage for...5 minutes? - but if eaten with Rosemary and chili flakes (which gives speed), it gives you a +5% movement bonus for 5 minutes whenever you are hit by an ice/water effect any time you are hit with it for the next hour.

which looks confusing, but can be simplified in certain respects - chicken mostly does defensive stuff, Rosemary affects water damage, and chili flakes affect speed. eat just chicken with Chili flakes? +5% move when your hp is at less than half it's total, for 30 minutes.

If salad does status effects, rosemary salad gives immunity to being Frozen. Chili Flake+Rosemary Salad actually doubles your speed when Frozen - useful if you are in snowy areas, assuming you can stand the other problems that come from being Frozen.

Thyme affects martial skills, horse radish does fire, etc.
Cinnamon is a multiplier for the herb, salt doubles the base food effect, but makes it an effect over time - so eating becomes "regen," instead of "healing," for example - black pepper makes your "reflective" - chicken+Rosemary+pepper means you reflect 5% of all Ice damage back to the attacker, or Beef (attack)+horse radish+pepper gives you a damage boost equal to 5% of all the fire damage you've taken.

and so on

now, clearly, that's a lot of work, and a lot of balance testing to be done, but it's what I'd love to see.

Some obvious limits - effects that share an ingredient overwrite each other - so you can't eat chicken+rosemary and chicken+horse radish to gain 2 elemental defenses, and you can't eat chicken+rosemary and salad+rosemary to protect against both damage and status effects from cold - you have to pick. You can add only 1 spice, and 1 herb, into each dish.

@gothix There is another problem - boards that offer hate speech and/or adult/sexual/illegal offers. just because you can't gold farm too well, maybe, possibly, we'll see, doesn't mean people won't drag other things into the game world in various uncomfortable ways - and the devs will need to figure what, if anything, they want to do about it. (I'm not saying they should, or they should not, I'm just saying that it's a thing they will need to make policy about, and decide, if they want to police it, how they are going to go about it)

never doubt the powers of thingies, properly used

Actually, we did have one other development - skills got changed a bit. Before, the first example of the difference between a lv 1 skill and a lv 3 skill was the lv 3 did more damage. It was pointed out that this made no sense in a horizontal progression game. much harumphing and argument ensued. Devs decided that, instead of "more damage" they'd go with alternative modes.

So, now, maybe Fireball 1 is a nice damage+small AoE attacks spell that fires out in a line and blows up when it strikes something, but Fireball 2 gives up some damage in return for a moderate seeking attribute, and Fireball 3 is linear like lv 1, and a tiny bit slower, but it's AoE is a cone of the same volume as the lv 1's boom - for when you absolutely need to shotgun blast someone's squad with cosmic fire.

Point being, now we have 3 times the skills, which we can pick and choose from for maximum advantage to our playing style, instead of having the Veterans have an advantage over the newbs as a function of time played and skills in-game Master'd (as opposed to out-of-game Mastered, in that we fully understand the mechanics and have developed a style that maximizes the skills potential, which we want/like, in theory XD)

@ekadzati Okay, first of all, you are entirely correct about me not fully reading the last link - mainly because I missed it entirely. What I get for doing this after work and half asleep. I'll respond more cogently in a bit, once I finish up the latest posted articles from you - but I felt the need, for the sake of honestly, to admit my mistake.

Some more reading:
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/1976/whats-your-favorite-character-class-to-play-on-your-first-character/21
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/5940/character-creation-ideal-build-analysis-and-discussion-of-initial-attribute-builds/47
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/6314/what-kind-of-arch-type-are-you/31

This time around, Sollarium is going to be an Udo (wolf), that's sort of an explorer/vagabond/maybe mail-carrier? High charisma, high Perception, moderate dex and int, average strength/constitution (or mod int and con, low str. still working details). Charisma/Dex fuels illusions and movement to gtfo - and there will be much gtfo - and a little offense, a little spellwork in case my copious supply of Caltrops do not convince you to LET ME LEAVE(!), but not much carry capacity. Want to get a letter to the Shield Heights? sure, I've been there. Need it there today? no one faster in the business. Promise not to use your letter as collateral in a game of cards? ummmm...I promise I'll win? XD

Transa is going to be a human merchant/sniper. High Dex/Perception, Good int, Mod Cha/Con, Average Strength. Lot's of range, lot's of probability buffs/tom-foolery. "But Rippy, how is that different?" - More Dakka. MUCH more dakka XD Transa welcomes anyone raiding. Looting your thieving corpses is a nice side-business! May be a Lich...

Safeakala is going to do human Mass-Shieldmaiden bit - run High Con, Mod-high Precep/Int, Mod Dex, average strength. High defense, high aggro, buffs/abjuration to pass her toughness to others, little recovery, much counter-offensive - esp if we've got some warfare/Martial skills that get empowered/activated from being smacked around.

Bloody Ash - Demon, probably infernal, near-best Con, Mod-high Str/perception/dex/int, min Charisma. Pure meleeist, Heavy damage/reactive/self-damage for gain, with a healthy dose of local area effect/CC to keep enemies next to her, and a bit of regen/life-steal if available. Very "I'm not trapped with you, YOU'RE ALL TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!"

Harial - Human Warfare specialist favoring speed over power - High Perc/Con, mod-high Str/Dex, average Cha/Int. Dual wielding swordsman who specializes in chaining/stunning attacks to lock an opponent into a world of pain, with a few repellers to keep the rabble away while he deals with their friend properly, and a chaser to jump to the next target. May be a Lich.

Sixth slot is still up in the air - let's see what the un-announced beastmen and demons are like XD

@j4po We know very little information in that regard.

We do know that there is very limited item grading. Using wood as a base produces worse armor than using dragon scales, to spitball an example, but the differences, while apparent, aren't necessarily big. Again, the devs have said that a player, in their first minute, has some chance to fight a veteran and win, assuming the newbie is very skilled, and the vet is not.

We do know that no equipment will provide a +x to a stat - given the hard limits on our statistics, that is far too broken a benefit. What we have had, as examples, are % bonuses to specific skils, skill types, and schools - this armor gives you a +5% damage to martial arts skills, to make up an example. We're also pretty sure that there will be trade-offs - that +5% comes with a -1 to defense compared to a comparable armor that just does defense (again, to just make up an example. each bonus' "weights" and "balances" aren't known, and are likely to be a major point of game balance). It has been suppositioned that derived stats - move speed, health and mana regen, conversation bonuses, luck, and carrying capacity, to name a few, may also be potential benefits.

Lastly, we know that some objects can be enchanted, and then applied to equipment - gems are the assumed object, and that equipment will have some limit to how many gems can be applied. We do know that at least some of these benefits will be permanent. We supposition that these benefits will be similar to normal armor effects - if you can get +5% damage to martial arts via armor, you can get +x% to martial arts via an enchanted gem as well. We don't know if the value will be lesser, or come with a similar balancing weakness.

There is some expectation, though no actual information, that most PvE drops will be materials, rather than equipment, with the assumption being that it's easier (And better for a player driven economy), to have general mats that anyone can use/buy/steal, rather than a lot of potentially useless gear clogging a very limited inventory space (not that the materials won't clog it up, too, just that they are more versatile).

It has also been suppositioned that making armor at higher skill levels gives the maker better control over what benefits and drawbacks a particular piece of equipment gives - like, a gi may carry a potential benefit to 5 or 6 different things (only 1 of which will manifest), but a Master tailor can limit it to 2 possible outcomes - each outcome has 5 potential negative balancers, but a Master tailor can eliminate 3 of them. So instead of wasting time making 40 or 50 gi on average to get the right combination of effects and drawbacks, a Master needs only make 3.

In total, we believe, though all things can change at this point, that while no particular equipment piece will be "better" than any other within grade, objectively speaking, that each piece will be better and more effective for a certain build and play-style, and it's up to the player to find/make the best armor for their needs.

there we go. first advertising effort. not a big audience, but I'm doing what I can

Well, I'm pretty glad to see the taming goal got reached! And I'm pretty opposed to seeing "pets" have enough combat effect to require them, per say. Now, if they use similar mechanics as say, an undead or summoned minion, that is a different matter (including limits on personal party size). I do like the idea of punishing and praising behaviors to make a pet more active in certain activities over others, and I am rather taken with the idea of a pet doing out-of-combat things - the dog digging up a treasure seems handy, as does the "warning function" - maybe let a creature do both, but only 1 at a time. And you can issue a command, but the animal tends to revert to swapping between different types of behavior per it's training - so you can command "Attack!" and it'll start doing combat things, but if you've trained it as a Treasure Hunter, it may just attack once and then go wander off to find more loot, after.

I'd also like to see a difference in choices - like, some are active combatants, while others don't fight, but instead stay away and buff you/your party - like, I'd like to see a spider combat pet mostly skitter around, dropping webs that slow enemies that walk on them, or, I don't know, a baby penguin that improves your odds of not Freezing, in addition to the Assault Bears and Tigers that seem more standard for a "battle pet".

no one likes spam bots.

We have no actual clue. There is some dev talk about going angelic/abominable will have a stat effect (+x to 1 stat, -x to another, when you change over), but we have the barest shred of a hint of a clue about other trait effects. It was proposed, as more or less a wild guess, that the evolution would have a relation to the original, but some how have it inverted or changed - A Shadow Angel would get different stats boosted in daylight (compared to what night boosts for devil shadows), or would boost ally stats in day light. Angelic infernals might weaken enemies based on how badly everyone in the party was hurt/how long the fight has lasted, or receive a stat boost based on how much a tagged person has been hurt (so, going from a tank sort of bonus to a dps bonus based on someone else tanking). How this would work for beastmen is even murkier - would Abom Udo get more powerful when there are a lot of enemies, or when there is only 1? Nhee Aboms...who the heck knows? their powers are so offensively-oriented already, making them even less friendly is a conceptually difficult task. Add poison to the claw damage, maybe, and give it an aoe risk each tick, so it miasmas out, to contrast against the more focused normal version? i dunno.

I sort of guess, given how strongly the game focuses on survival mechanics and environmental effects, that mounts are going to need something - don't know if the devs will include cold weather gear for mounts, for example, but letting them eat, at least, seems like a thing that they'd contemplate, and environment affecting forage for them seems possible

@meninodeouro much woot and joy!

@gofrit Less than 400 now!

Don't
Stop it now!
We're
having a good time ~
(Having a Good Time~!)

And now we're under 1k away. EXCITEMENT~!

@eurav Off the top of my head, I don't think it makes much sense, either XD It was suggested, at one point, that becoming Angelic/Abominable would create a stat change (a +2 con, -2 Dex, or something like that), which might cause a stat go over 21...but that wouldn't come up as part of the creation table.

As to your question of how someone hits 25 in anything, I'd tend to point at the temporary buff options - Alteration and alchemic potions of stat boosting. +5 has been listed as the soft cap on temporary bonuses (possible, but so difficult that +6 is functionally impossible), so if someone gets an 18 naturally, use a passive to +2 to 20, and then take all the possible temporary boosts, you get there, even as a human. Sure, it's not permanent, but it might last just long enough...

@j4po Pre-alpha is, but I'm pretty sure alpha 1 isn't.

@eurav Okay, so - we start with 100, or 120, creation points to make our characters. If you have gear gives +4 to a stat in total, and your stat was 10, it goes to 14 - a shift that would cost 8 points if done through the character creation mechanism. In a human, that's 8/120, ~6.6% improvement. if you get a +4 on top of an 17, that's a 21, that's worth 16 points, (and nets you the bonus for having a 20 or more). On anything non-human, 16/100, 16% boost. ergo, a range of ~6.6%-16% statistical bonus over a new player using starting gear.

My point was, this seems like a significantly bigger advantage than I think is reasonable. Strength isn't just damage, it's armor rating, armor equipment, health, and carry capacity. Intelligence isn't just spell damage, it's mana pool, mana regen, it's magic resistance and spell cooldown. And the devs have established that a +5 (temporary) to a stat is difficult to come by - meaning it should also be noteworthy. To hand someone a permanent +4 seems...nonsensical, in that lens.

Your point about an incompetent meleeist versus a ranged fighter who knows how to stay away from another person is reasonable, but not quite apropos - For one thing, I'm not sure how someone would get to the best gear for a certain stat in the game without having at least one trick to deal some damage to a ranged fighter - there's incompetent, and then there is "can't actually play the game." Also, it stacks the deck significantly in the new player's favor with factors that aren't skill-based - the scenario isn't "I played better, so I won," it's more "I'd have to actually screw-up in order to lose."

My mental example is 2 players using similar ideas - 2 meleeists, 2 archers, 2 wizards, with the vet playing in a very blah sort of way - a tool kit full of damage, for example, with a set order of use - no imagination, no prediction, no response, just "do the thing and win" in essence, something that works against limited ai encountered in PvE; versus someone who knows how to pvp - how to predict opponents well, how bait them, and how to punish, who took some utilities and skills that, individually, aren't as impressive, but give flexibility and mutual support to the other skills in play - someone who knows what they are doing, and can actively capitalize on the opponent's moves and mistakes. Both are successful players, but it's clear which one should win in a direct fight, all things being equal "enough."
And I don't know that a +4 in a stat is too imbalanced to fit that criteria.

Now, I don't know if it isn't, either, of course - no hard numbers means we all cry at this point in the discussion. It's within the realm of possibility that +1 strength means a +10% life bouns, damage reduction, and damage bonus (or, +40% in total for each - aka, hella broken to have on a permanent basis) - something so one-sided that the new player can't possibly win. Conversely, it might be +1% per, which is more or less a non-issue (and makes anyone who takes a 21 in strength at creation a complete fool).

Now, if we assume a creation point is worth the same, universally, despite the varied prices to up a statistic, we get the top end benefit to be something like 12.5-16%. To take the intelligence example - spells do 12.5-16% more damage, the veteran mage takes 12.5-16% less damage from spells, and can cast 12.5-16 spells to their opponents 10 (assuming all the spells have the same cast/cool down times), if you apply that benefit universally. On that basis, I'd say our new mage player is in a heck of a lot of trouble. Maybe not insurmountable trouble, but deep, deep trouble. would that be too one-sided, invalidating the premise of "skilled newb being able to take a talentless vet?" - don't know, but it seems likely. If it's more +16% damage, 8% resist, 4 more spells per 10, then it's closer to balanced, enough that I'd probably say it's within the limits of plausibility. @Gothix probably has a better feel for this sort of thing.

And, of course, it goes without saying that, if we have more equipment that can give a +1 to a statistic - rings, boots, amulets - or if a stat boost can be more than +1, then all of these issues get so much worse. Statistics are powerful in this game, because they touch on so many aspects. The balancing factors would have to be truly heinous to match the benefits.