NO tank mages
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Agree. Since we can change pretty much at will, I think things will work out. Plus there's always balancing. Nothing is ever perfect right out the gate, so undoubtedly there will be nerfs a coming.
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@Dybuk there are no classes but there are primary attributes that are unchangeable after you select them on start, and each attribute is better fitting to certain school.
This is why schools of magic should be balanced between each other.
So perhaps we shouldn't be saying a "mage" should be balanced with "warrior", but what we actually mean by this is that "conjuration school" should be balanced with "warfare school" etc. Schools are the ones that need to be balanced (and thus benefits that particular attributes bring as well, and not for example INT giving more benefits than PER), so any school is viable vs any school, so that schools do not end up being "rock paper scissor" to each other, because if that will be the case, then game will majorly suck.
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@Gothix
First, let me say that I am not trying to argue with you. I too agree that there should not be a single school of skills that would give you advantage over everything else - be it magic or combat. What I want to point out in my posts in this topic is: from how things currently look, there won't be a single "build" that will be able to easily defeat everyone.Stats:
Yes, Stats are not changeable after character creation and yes, each stat is probably better fitting for a different kind of school. But we still do not know the whole impact of stats on skills. We only know for what each skill is responsible and what kind of bonuses each stat gives when set to 20.
I think Perception will influence Crit chance and maybe accuracy in both combat and magic schools. So, a mage with high Int and low Per might find it hard to "land" a spell on an enemy, while ranger with high Per will hit and crit with every shot from his bow.
In addition, I do not see any reason why one person wouldn't be able to use schools of combat and schools of magic at the same time. Of course such a person will have a different bonuses based on stats, but low mana will be balanced with high health or stamina or accuracy and crit.
Being high on Int and low on Str will make you really squishy.Balancing:
To me balancing for example Conjuration school with Warfare school, or any other schools between each other seems meaningless.
Let me explain:
I do not think we will have to be using only one school of skills at single moment. Most people will mix them up. So, if you want to think about balancing things - you would have to balance each combination of schools with any other combination. You cannot think about schools being rock-paper-scissors, because people will mix them up.
For example you would have to balance: [Conjuration + Invocation] with [Conjuration + Illusion] with [Warfare + Martial arts] with [Warfare + Restoration] with [Warfare + Restoration + Martial arts], etc. , etc.. There are too many different combinations.
Of course, when the game is live and devs will notice that a specific build is too strong, they may think about nerfing it down, but there is no point in talking about this now, when we still do not know the game.This topic:
Just a reminder: This topic started with a hate towards mages trying to be tanks and we diverted into balancing stuff out
I do not see any reason why mages wouldn't be able to be tanks. If a player is skilled enough to pull it off and not to die from single blow, go ahead. No one says magic schools should be in the back row.
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@gothix said in NO tank mages:
I personally extremely dislike rock paper scissors system. I much prefer where all classes are balanced and viable vs any other class.
Those aren't exclusive concepts. "Rock paper scissors" just means that there are moves you can use that will counter or beat other moves.
Remember that in Fractured every player can use (almost?) every skill. You won't be locked into a class that is hard-countered by an entire other class because, to continue this awkward euphemism, you can get both rock and paper on the same character.
A typical form of rock paper scissors is something like:
- Heavy attacks destroy Block (and overrule Light Attacks)
- You can Dodge and Counter heavy attacks
- Blocking or Light Attacking will prevent Dodge and Counter from working
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@FibS if you actually read what I wrote you would see that I am not against having a particular skill be counter to another skill. I am against a particular school be a counter to another school.
When I say game being rock paper scissors, I mean particular school being paper, while another school being scissors. As long as there is a build within each school who can be viable against builds from other schools that is ok. As I wrote, schools need to be balanced between each other, not particular decks.
See a comment I wrote you in other thread where I used example of original TSW.
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@gothix Man I loved the original TSW! However although there were a near infinite number of builds, there were some that were simply inferior... in other words it was entirely possible to screw yourself over by selecting bad passives, skills without synergy and weapons that were not a good match. It was also possible to create a degree of Tank Mage in TSW in that some builds could have great DPS and healing... but they were actually more balanced than you may think due to the fact that hard alpha strikes would still kill them as they lacked the defensive capability to withstand the raw damage - and I think that was the only true dual role single stat stacking possible. SWL is a poor man's substitute for the TSW skill wheel.
The point being that it was, for the most part, reasonably balanced by design through the talisman system which gave DPS or Tank or Heal bonuses. Meaning if you hybridised you would never be as good as a pure build in the same role even with the same skills.
Fractured however has a stat system that is one step divorced from impact and an apparent skill system that may allow for a single stat stacked build to get the best of all worlds. This is the concern. Basically it should not be possible to create a build that effectively does two roles at an optimum or near optimum level irrespective of how you achieve it... a pure role should always surpass the hybrid in their specialisation.
However without more info on how magic works and how stats influence it, we can only voice our concerns from having played through some pretty badly balanced games.
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@jarek Strictly speaking, no one is going to have a single stat build - most will have a double stat build at least (and the remainder aren't necessarily weak. Most humans will have a single dump stat, and a single average, at least, unless they go for a 4-stat build). Sorry to be pedantic.
However, it does mean that every build will be able to have at least 2 viable roles - most Fighters, tank or dps, will also be very good archers at the same time. Most Rouges will be able to dps (at range, if not also melee) And CC or spellcast or tank, simultaneously. Skill selection will make more of an impact on "role" than stats will, because everyone will be able to multiple things well.
The actual debate is more about whether any non-Intelligence build can be as good as an Intelligence one, because of the breadth of skills available to Intelligence builds (8 mage schools +, compared to 4~ish physical schools), and that even non-mages need okay int for it's other benefits, making a 4 18's build implausible for them, while mages can use that min/max ideal.
I think you are right that there isn't enough information, but I also think this thread has several ideas for balancing this perceived issue without contradicting anything we've already been told. In essence, I'm not worried at this point, now that the concern has been expressed, and I'm perfectly fine with a non-specialist being as awesome as a specialist - because no one is going to be a specialist, really.
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@gothix said in NO tank mages:
@FibS if you actually read what I wrote you would see that I am not against having a particular skill be counter to another skill. I am against a particular school be a counter to another school.
When I say game being rock paper scissors, I mean particular school being paper, while another school being scissors. As long as there is a build within each school who can be viable against builds from other schools that is ok. As I wrote, schools need to be balanced between each other, not particular decks.
See a comment I wrote you in other thread where I used example of original TSW.
I'm not going to hold the same argument with you in two separate threads. This is the last reply I will give in this one.
There's nothing wrong with a school countering another school, because you can get more than one school simultaneously - the same as with skills.
In the vast majority of games, you cannot get more than one class simultaneously, if you can even get more than one at all, and usually your "maxed out" class is permanent unless you roll a new character entirely.
Also, at the meta level, there is no such thing as a game that has no hard counter classes (or equivalents thereof e.g. builds).
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@FibS it's very simple, you can cheer on for rock paper scissors system, but if it happens you can kiss the pop goodbye, and play on empty server till it dies.
That's all I'm going to say.
Have fun.
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Love me some tank mage
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@gothix if one school can dominate another what's stopping you from taking both of them? Being one trick pony will surely make that one trick powerful but you're leaving yourself open.
The problem will be if one school can dominate few others. But that's what balancing is for.
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I think tank mages would be quite cool haha
maybe that's just me, but variety is always nice
