Best posts made by TheRippyOne

(looked around, didn't see anything about initial builds in the past 6 months, sooo)

We've known for a while how the attributes are going to work (ie, it's all at character creation, using 'x' points, plus potentially getting 2 more in each stat via a skill in that stat's tree) - I want to do a bit of an analysis, and see if anyone has picked their first stat build? (yes, we've had a "what's your first build" thread, but no one has really talked about how they are going to build towards it)

Further, we know each stat gives a big bonus for hitting 20 - a big damage buff, improved regeneration in hp or mp, big accuracy and evasion buffs, and a large luck bonus.

there are some things to consider - Humans at 120 points, and the others have 100, but with one stat being "cheaper" - encouraging the use of that stat (plus some other non-stat bonuses, because the cheaper stat doesn't quite cover things).

All stats start at 6, and maxes vary by species (but centered on 18), with 10 being the expected average. Stats increase asynchronously - there's a table over here. https://fracturedmmo.com/feature-spotlight-5-character-creation-attributes-resting/

30 points get you to 18 (only 18 for the specialty stat for non-humans), and 10 (6) will get you to 10.

Finally, it is specifically mentioned that having less than 10 Int will hurt everyone due to a penalty gaining Knowledge points (you'll get there eventually, but it is a problem)

So, what does that all mean?

Human ideals are fairly easy
4 18's, 2 6's - min/max ideal
3 18's, 3 10's - nothing wrong, nice balance
3 18's, 1 15, 1 10, and 1 6 - the strongest options if you want to start without a penalty to knowledge (AND Intelligence isn't one of your 18's)
1 18, 5 14 - solid jack of all trades with one bonus

Less ideal, but may fit for a unique build
3 18's, 2 11's, 1 8 - use the 8 on Int, gain the +2 on the int stat tree to avoid the penalty
3, 18's, 1 12, 1 10, 1 8 - for the same reason above
6 15's - jack of all trades, master of none, (none of the bonus' are possible)
2 18s, 2 13s, 2 12- weaker jack with 2 bonuses .

Honestly, I can think of some "class" that would favor one of these options for some build, except the 6 15's. I'm sure someone would like it, but I can't see who, especially when 1 18, 5 14's are available. What do you all think?

Off the top of my head, a focused wizard probably favors the min/max ideal, dump stat'ing Strength and either dexterity, or constitution (probably dex - they need some carrying capacity, and Constitution gives that). A focused fighter might do the same, dump stat'ing Charisma and Intelligence, but I imagine that they'd complain about the slow growth constantly XD A more reasonable build is probably the mixed option, with the 10 on int, 6 in cha, and the 15 set to their least useful of the 4 remaining stats - an archer, for example, would use 15 con, while a tank might go 15 str. Alternatively, the 18-10 is a good dedicated character who isn't useless outside their specialty, and might see some play in that respect. However, the 1 18, 5 14 jack of all trades might be the most useful from that angle - 18 Int, and then use spell boosting and re-skill to bolster your decent stats and play any role you want. The rest are "okay," in my opinion, but it's hard to think of why someone would favor them over those 4, unless they are playing to a very specific sort of character. The Intelligence 8 (+2 from the tree) seem like a poor choice for minor gains in return for having to go pretty high into a stat tree you aren't really using to avoid slow growth/frustration.

@myux Honestly, there are several ways to make gear that is "equally as good" as starting armor, but creates benefits in various ways that make them more valuable to certain individuals - the trick is properly balancing these benefits and drawbacks - how much bonus damage to Martial Arts skills is worth losing 1 point of damage reduction (not much for an in and out style of fighting, quite a bit for a brawler) - is a movement buff worth additional cooldown at some point? (probably not, though it could be worth it for tanks and some warfare users favoring big drawn-out moves, or mages that play with DoT fields or kiting)

Getting this sort of thing is stupidly hard, and it rarely is "right" every time (a light DoT bonus based on initial strike damage might be weak for one player, and exceedingly useful to another, based on things like playstyle and skill choices, for example, before you get into the question of "what's an equivalent de-buff to balance it"), but it seems like the devs are devoted to this sort of balancing for gear - if they get it "right enough" then the gear will certainly be worthwhile, "neutral rate" though it may be by some standard.

In general, I like this idea

I'mma git my cook on!

but there is an issue of "what does it do!?"

I would love to see...call it 8 herbs? and 6 spices? and how you use them in combination, and what foods you put them on, produces different effects. so, there is a certain level of mastery involved in cooking for effect. Like, food has a natural secondary nature that only appears when you season it.

as an example, if you add Rosemary to chicken by itself, you get chicken's normal effect, and chicken's hidden nature applies to the herb's effect (defense, let's say). If Rosemary affects ice/water, putting it on defensive chicken get's you a +1 to defense against ice/water damage for...5 minutes? - but if eaten with Rosemary and chili flakes (which gives speed), it gives you a +5% movement bonus for 5 minutes whenever you are hit by an ice/water effect any time you are hit with it for the next hour.

which looks confusing, but can be simplified in certain respects - chicken mostly does defensive stuff, Rosemary affects water damage, and chili flakes affect speed. eat just chicken with Chili flakes? +5% move when your hp is at less than half it's total, for 30 minutes.

If salad does status effects, rosemary salad gives immunity to being Frozen. Chili Flake+Rosemary Salad actually doubles your speed when Frozen - useful if you are in snowy areas, assuming you can stand the other problems that come from being Frozen.

Thyme affects martial skills, horse radish does fire, etc.
Cinnamon is a multiplier for the herb, salt doubles the base food effect, but makes it an effect over time - so eating becomes "regen," instead of "healing," for example - black pepper makes your "reflective" - chicken+Rosemary+pepper means you reflect 5% of all Ice damage back to the attacker, or Beef (attack)+horse radish+pepper gives you a damage boost equal to 5% of all the fire damage you've taken.

and so on

now, clearly, that's a lot of work, and a lot of balance testing to be done, but it's what I'd love to see.

Some obvious limits - effects that share an ingredient overwrite each other - so you can't eat chicken+rosemary and chicken+horse radish to gain 2 elemental defenses, and you can't eat chicken+rosemary and salad+rosemary to protect against both damage and status effects from cold - you have to pick. You can add only 1 spice, and 1 herb, into each dish.

@gothix There is another problem - boards that offer hate speech and/or adult/sexual/illegal offers. just because you can't gold farm too well, maybe, possibly, we'll see, doesn't mean people won't drag other things into the game world in various uncomfortable ways - and the devs will need to figure what, if anything, they want to do about it. (I'm not saying they should, or they should not, I'm just saying that it's a thing they will need to make policy about, and decide, if they want to police it, how they are going to go about it)

never doubt the powers of thingies, properly used

Actually, we did have one other development - skills got changed a bit. Before, the first example of the difference between a lv 1 skill and a lv 3 skill was the lv 3 did more damage. It was pointed out that this made no sense in a horizontal progression game. much harumphing and argument ensued. Devs decided that, instead of "more damage" they'd go with alternative modes.

So, now, maybe Fireball 1 is a nice damage+small AoE attacks spell that fires out in a line and blows up when it strikes something, but Fireball 2 gives up some damage in return for a moderate seeking attribute, and Fireball 3 is linear like lv 1, and a tiny bit slower, but it's AoE is a cone of the same volume as the lv 1's boom - for when you absolutely need to shotgun blast someone's squad with cosmic fire.

Point being, now we have 3 times the skills, which we can pick and choose from for maximum advantage to our playing style, instead of having the Veterans have an advantage over the newbs as a function of time played and skills in-game Master'd (as opposed to out-of-game Mastered, in that we fully understand the mechanics and have developed a style that maximizes the skills potential, which we want/like, in theory XD)

@ekadzati Okay, first of all, you are entirely correct about me not fully reading the last link - mainly because I missed it entirely. What I get for doing this after work and half asleep. I'll respond more cogently in a bit, once I finish up the latest posted articles from you - but I felt the need, for the sake of honestly, to admit my mistake.

Some more reading:
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/1976/whats-your-favorite-character-class-to-play-on-your-first-character/21
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/5940/character-creation-ideal-build-analysis-and-discussion-of-initial-attribute-builds/47
https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/6314/what-kind-of-arch-type-are-you/31

This time around, Sollarium is going to be an Udo (wolf), that's sort of an explorer/vagabond/maybe mail-carrier? High charisma, high Perception, moderate dex and int, average strength/constitution (or mod int and con, low str. still working details). Charisma/Dex fuels illusions and movement to gtfo - and there will be much gtfo - and a little offense, a little spellwork in case my copious supply of Caltrops do not convince you to LET ME LEAVE(!), but not much carry capacity. Want to get a letter to the Shield Heights? sure, I've been there. Need it there today? no one faster in the business. Promise not to use your letter as collateral in a game of cards? ummmm...I promise I'll win? XD

Transa is going to be a human merchant/sniper. High Dex/Perception, Good int, Mod Cha/Con, Average Strength. Lot's of range, lot's of probability buffs/tom-foolery. "But Rippy, how is that different?" - More Dakka. MUCH more dakka XD Transa welcomes anyone raiding. Looting your thieving corpses is a nice side-business! May be a Lich...

Safeakala is going to do human Mass-Shieldmaiden bit - run High Con, Mod-high Precep/Int, Mod Dex, average strength. High defense, high aggro, buffs/abjuration to pass her toughness to others, little recovery, much counter-offensive - esp if we've got some warfare/Martial skills that get empowered/activated from being smacked around.

Bloody Ash - Demon, probably infernal, near-best Con, Mod-high Str/perception/dex/int, min Charisma. Pure meleeist, Heavy damage/reactive/self-damage for gain, with a healthy dose of local area effect/CC to keep enemies next to her, and a bit of regen/life-steal if available. Very "I'm not trapped with you, YOU'RE ALL TRAPPED IN HERE WITH ME!"

Harial - Human Warfare specialist favoring speed over power - High Perc/Con, mod-high Str/Dex, average Cha/Int. Dual wielding swordsman who specializes in chaining/stunning attacks to lock an opponent into a world of pain, with a few repellers to keep the rabble away while he deals with their friend properly, and a chaser to jump to the next target. May be a Lich.

Sixth slot is still up in the air - let's see what the un-announced beastmen and demons are like XD

@j4po We know very little information in that regard.

We do know that there is very limited item grading. Using wood as a base produces worse armor than using dragon scales, to spitball an example, but the differences, while apparent, aren't necessarily big. Again, the devs have said that a player, in their first minute, has some chance to fight a veteran and win, assuming the newbie is very skilled, and the vet is not.

We do know that no equipment will provide a +x to a stat - given the hard limits on our statistics, that is far too broken a benefit. What we have had, as examples, are % bonuses to specific skils, skill types, and schools - this armor gives you a +5% damage to martial arts skills, to make up an example. We're also pretty sure that there will be trade-offs - that +5% comes with a -1 to defense compared to a comparable armor that just does defense (again, to just make up an example. each bonus' "weights" and "balances" aren't known, and are likely to be a major point of game balance). It has been suppositioned that derived stats - move speed, health and mana regen, conversation bonuses, luck, and carrying capacity, to name a few, may also be potential benefits.

Lastly, we know that some objects can be enchanted, and then applied to equipment - gems are the assumed object, and that equipment will have some limit to how many gems can be applied. We do know that at least some of these benefits will be permanent. We supposition that these benefits will be similar to normal armor effects - if you can get +5% damage to martial arts via armor, you can get +x% to martial arts via an enchanted gem as well. We don't know if the value will be lesser, or come with a similar balancing weakness.

There is some expectation, though no actual information, that most PvE drops will be materials, rather than equipment, with the assumption being that it's easier (And better for a player driven economy), to have general mats that anyone can use/buy/steal, rather than a lot of potentially useless gear clogging a very limited inventory space (not that the materials won't clog it up, too, just that they are more versatile).

It has also been suppositioned that making armor at higher skill levels gives the maker better control over what benefits and drawbacks a particular piece of equipment gives - like, a gi may carry a potential benefit to 5 or 6 different things (only 1 of which will manifest), but a Master tailor can limit it to 2 possible outcomes - each outcome has 5 potential negative balancers, but a Master tailor can eliminate 3 of them. So instead of wasting time making 40 or 50 gi on average to get the right combination of effects and drawbacks, a Master needs only make 3.

In total, we believe, though all things can change at this point, that while no particular equipment piece will be "better" than any other within grade, objectively speaking, that each piece will be better and more effective for a certain build and play-style, and it's up to the player to find/make the best armor for their needs.

there we go. first advertising effort. not a big audience, but I'm doing what I can

@fibs kinda - we know some things - like, the dev's believe that 20 in a stat, and the bonuses that come from that level, are "worth" the costs (which are demonstratively hefty) - we know that 18's get us 20 after some skill tinkering; we know that anything under 10 is "bad" - and we have some idea about "how bad" thanks to their discussions of the malus related to sub-10 Intelligence - losing study slots is a fairly big deal, not gaining as much knowledge in some circumstances is nasty, plus whatever it costs in terms of spell strength and mana recovery that naturally come from that low stat. Further, since the expense of different points varies, we can make some statements about how the devs value different scores - going from 6 to 10 takes 10 points. Going from 10 to 15 - 1 extra level - has the same weight. I assume that this is more an expression of how bad the malus are, as much as anything (and that the malus at 6-8 is notably worse than it is at 9, by the devs thinking) - the devs are convinced it is worth it to get away from those penalties to spring for the extra expense. Extrapolating may not produce the "right" answer - but it isn't out of line to think all of the stats have similar downsided of some sort - downsides that demonstratively makes some integral part of the game much harder. Conversely, 6-10 is also weighted the same as 15-18 - one level less, which almost certainly means that the devs consider the upgrades are not only base value good, but that the chance at the bonus is worth it. the same 10 points only accounts for 2.5 levels going from 18 on up, but they all weigh the same - each point over 18 is worth twice as much as 9-15. in one sense, the devs don't care when you get the bonuses, just that you can. In another, you could argue they think every point is as good as getting that bonus - which may mean the bonus grows on a point basis, and thus all of these values are really really good when viewed through that benefit. a third interpretation is that the benefit from a stat increase is asynchronous - that 10 to 11 get's you 5% better damage, but 15 to 16 gets you a 7.5% boost, and 18 get's you a 10% boost, and ignores the actual benefit of the bonus.

Further, you can make extrapolations of range - we don't know how "good" an 18 is, but we know that 21 is fantastic, because it tops the natural chart, that 25 is absurd, since it's the top, period, and that a maximum temporary buff is probably no better than 5, if you include multiple sources, since the devs tell us that getting from a 20 to a 25 by these sources is hard.

We can thus extrapolate that 5 points difference is major - not in a quantitative way - we can't say "go up 5 points net you 50% bonus damage" - but we can make a qualitative statement that 5 points are a noticeable difference - one that the devs felt was significant enough as to make acquiring it difficult. using those factors, you can say that, if 10 is "normal," 15 is probably "fairly good," 18 is "quite good," 20 is "exceptional," and 25 is "the best"

you can thus make a statement like "A quite good spell booster, can reasonably raise a stat by 2-3 points, taking a 14, that is decent, into a 16-17, which is good" - which is where my assertion that "the spell booster jack of all trades was an excellent all-arounder" came from.

I could be wrong, of course. Logic is, of course, the way to go wrong with certainty XD but it isn't just a castle in the air, but grounded in what information we do have.

To use Suruq's first build (above), we can makes some basic general statements - they aren't going to miss often, and they are going to evade often, and crits will be fairly common for them. they aren't going to be particularly powerful attacking or casting - they are much better geared to archery, preferably with a very fast bow or throwing weapons to maximize the number of times they hit and get a crit - but they can also dodge tank with some success, depending on how they re-skill, and they can take on a role as a secondary caster or dps by relying on a heightened crit rate, and use their perception to make up for lower accuracy but higher damage skill moves, if they make the appropriate re-skills for their passives (Assuming those are things). Those secondary build options may cause some difficulty, especially if they go for the high risk moves, with their mana economy, due to the moderate recovery rate from their average Intelligence, but potions and gear might cover that gap sufficiently. As I said, not a bad build, and a pretty solid generalist.

to put in a last word - the devs have put a significant emphasis on how a newbie and a vet are on a similar playing field - among other things, this implies that the stat selection is a huge element in any character's abilities (And nothing you do in the game matters as much as how you built in creation, mechanics-wise. The only other factor is skill in execution). I can think of 2 sources where you can get more stats - the skill tree, limit 2 per, and a god blessing, which looks like a once in a lifetime occurrence, period. The devs are balancing very hard around the starting character, and making these stats the critical value in their calculations - no gear, as fair as I can determine, affect stats directly - their focus are on affecting skills and effects, instead - derived values that are easier to control and have less overarching reach. in as much as anything is going to matter, these stats, and how you deploy them, are this game's king maker. The rest of the game is using them well (or not).

So, yeah, I could be overstating the value of working out stat arrays, and talking about how to apply them efficiently, in the absolute sense. maybe 18 only have a 10% benefit over a 10 - not likely, but sure; doesn't matter - The devs are still signalling that nothing else will give a bonus anywhere close to that - so, relatively speaking, this stuff is still critical, and worth discussing, even if we don't quite know what we are really saying.

@agracore Humans start out with 120 creation points, everyone else starts out with 100 creation points and one affinity - the affinity makes that one stat cheaper to buy. To buy a stat up to 18, you need 30 points normally, but only 18 points in the affinity - fairly useful, right?

basic math does note the problem, though - a human can buy 4 18's (30x4=120), while non-humans can't (18+3x30=108 - 8 points more than the non-humans get). The special powers of each race are meant to make up for this, and mostly do, but you need to use them right. A Blood demon gains nothing if they don't do damage, for example (as far as I can tell) - so having one as a healer, or a non-combat support, is a "waste" of their power. You can still do it, of course, free will and all that, but it's not a great idea from a mechanics stand point.

@jahlon Normally, I'd agree, but apparently the devs read the forums for ideas, so it is kind of worthwhile having a debate just so they know what everyone is thinking about? IT's how we went from a single server to an international series of servers.

If taking an allergy got me 1 point in character creation (so all those builds on the non-human side where 1 more point means the difference between a 9 and a 10), I'd go for it XD Demons would probably have it worst - low biosphere on Tartaros means fewer food options. Beastmen would seem to have lots of options, while humans would have the most. Tartaros Eclipse invasions are food/beer runs? XD

@gibbx yes, it's classless, but classes are convenient ways to discuss things. So, yes, while character x has skills that let them do anything, they will also have stats that favor certain things, which let's them act in certain roles well, and others poorly. a limited charisma leads to a problem singing, and makes them poor bards. a good constitution score gives a character the option to stand in the front line of a fight, whether that is as a "tank" or a "dps." The fact that a character can easily switch between the 2 means the game is classless - no one is any particular class - but what you choose to be at any given moment can be discussed in terms of class.

@jozef How do you know which horse is yours? What if you forget where you left it?

Pulls out a fob, clicks a button - one of the horses whinies

@gothix Fellow TSW vet - damn I miss that game. Chaos Pistoleer for general running around. I also agree that the balance was excellent. now, there were some builds that were better for some things, more than others - especially in pvp. You saw more dash/cc in the continious pvp map, but not in the king of the mountain, for example. However, even if that were the case, that didn't mean there was a superior build (or even 3 or 4 top builds) - I personally saw at least 12 builds in any given round, and they all "worked" in some ways, and were also counterable (and the counters had their own weaknesses) - it was a glorious mish mash of pyrotechnics and strategy impacting imperfectly all over the place.

I actually included jack of all trades as a build over in my build thread - https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/5940/character-creation-ideal-build-analysis-and-discussion-of-initial-attribute-builds/44 - for humans, one of the better options is 1 18 (in Intelligence) and 5 14s - and then use Alteration magic to bolster the 2 important stats up to 17 for whatever role you feel like playing at any given moment. Capitalize on your good mana regen to use the playstyle's big guns - whatever those are - and have 2 or 3 skill slots left to customize the build for the intended next adventure.

Wanna tank? Bolster Con and Dex, tap in a massive aggro, a big defense, a restore or 2, and then fill the 1-3 spare slots with the bread and butter - shield bash, an AoE that centers on you and cc's/dot's the surrounding enemies, and/or a rush/teleport to get you into the mix faster.

Ranged DPS? Bolster Perception and Agility, slot in a big wide line for the zerg rush, a single target for massive damage, a dodge out or 2 to stay free, and then fill in the rest with more standard attacks, traps, or even an illusion or music (cause, hey, 14 Charisma ain't bad), to suit whatever you intend to do next.

and so on.

The major downside is spending 2 slots on bolsters - the jack-wizard will never have the same flexibility in skill selection that a purpose-built will when they play outside of wizard. There is also minor concerns about an abjuration specialist breaking their buffs - but, again, at worst you are running a 14 in every other stat - breaking down to that is not going to be awful. (abjuration necromancers, though, or mage breaker meleists, or trapist rogues, all of whom specialize in de-buffs, might turn into much bigger problems)

And, of course, you are still one of the most powerful wizard in human society, which is nothing to sneeze at, regardless.

@kairosval Most of what I was thinking about was "bind on acquisition" sort of deal - doesn't matter so much to me how grindy it is, if the person who wants it has to do the grinding. I absolutely agree that the dev's need to make sure that the economy doesn't get borked by legendary drops (another reason I was focusing on visuals and display trophies, to avoid any power advantage from them.)

I think we can safely say to the devs, that we like their vision, and want them to keep it, and I think we can say that in the strongest terms possible.