Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users
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I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already, but another nerf to magic users is if magic has a cast time and can be interrupted. In Elder Scrolls Online this requires an attack marked as an interrupt, while in Ragnarok Online taking any damage is an interrupt.
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@gibbx yes, it's classless, but classes are convenient ways to discuss things. So, yes, while character x has skills that let them do anything, they will also have stats that favor certain things, which let's them act in certain roles well, and others poorly. a limited charisma leads to a problem singing, and makes them poor bards. a good constitution score gives a character the option to stand in the front line of a fight, whether that is as a "tank" or a "dps." The fact that a character can easily switch between the 2 means the game is classless - no one is any particular class - but what you choose to be at any given moment can be discussed in terms of class.
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I don't think we know enough yet about the way the skills or horizontal progression will work since we haven't even seen Alpha game play yet to start calling something OP. I do get the concern that you bring up and can see how you've come to that thought. I just don't think we know enough to start declaring certain classes or skill OP at this point.
While all the magic casting schools do have at least the INT attribute as a major attribute there are a few that also take a secondary attribute. In addition if those people want to craft or explore the world they are going to need to up their other skills as well to make that possible.
To me at this point it would be like saying straight Warriors using strength attribute are going to be OP in crafting since the strength attribute determines how much you can carry which will determine how many resources you can gather at one time,
Or Blood Demons are OP if they play a Musicianship/Restoration since they get a +3 to both main attributes needed and one is an affinity in addition to being a +3.
I'm not ready to jump on the band wagon of the sky is falling until I see the game play in action.
There is likely some balancing that will be needed but we'll figure that out in testing.
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@fibs said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already, but another nerf to magic users is if magic has a cast time and can be interrupted. In Elder Scrolls Online this requires an attack marked as an interrupt, while in Ragnarok Online taking any damage is an interrupt.
And, at least as far as I've seen, pretty much most MMOs have some kind of mechanic for spell interruption.
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Another solution could be that different schools use different stats as "fuel".
So INT will fuel the learning of magic schools, while STR fuels the learning of physical skills.
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@gothix said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
(...)you can't just "re balance" that(...)
Yes, you can. That's the magic of (proper) object oriented programming in combination with providing not one, but a broad range of balancing hooks.
@gothix said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
(...)"Fact 1" is assumed and planned by devs (...)People can catch up yes, but if learning time is long, and Fractured does plan it to be long, then certain "classes" progressing much faster then others would be very unfair.
~IF~ there is such an imbalance to learning skills, then you have a pure 'pay to win' scenario with how VIP works anyway.
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I'm pretty sure Mages need perception (for accuracy and crit) and dex (for accuracy and evasion). So contrary to the OP's impression mages are actually at a disadvantage, requiring Int + Perc + Dex (and possibly Charisma). And everyone needs some Constitution, so Mages end up jack of all trades much more than e.g. Marksmen or sins.
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@gibbx yeah this is a classless game but people still tend to put what abilities and weapons you use into a category so it's easy to tell what that person can do by magic user i just think this guy means someone that primarily uses magic / wands and staffs as a weapon
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I agree with @Atoro - maybe mages won't "need" to have Perception and Dexterity, but not having them may influence them negatively. Spells not hitting their target, etc.
As to offensive / defensive of different builds, I think Mage does not have to be necessarily stronger then Warfare Warrior or Marksman. Being low on Str and Con a Mage will have a small amount of HP. Something like a glass cannon - he can hit you hard, but if you hit him, he dies quickly.
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@fibs said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
I'm not sure if I've mentioned this already, but another nerf to magic users is if magic has a cast time and can be interrupted. In Elder Scrolls Online this requires an attack marked as an interrupt, while in Ragnarok Online taking any damage is an interrupt.
And in Age of Conan any damage delayed the cast time of spells. Also an option instead of interrupt.
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in the gameplay vid the wiz was very squishy the melee warrior type did most of the work.
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@axan22 said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
in the gameplay vid the wiz was very squishy the melee warrior type did most of the work.
That should massively depend on the type of enemy you're facing though, since we know that some builds can 'counter' other builds enough that this is a determining factor in PvP battles.
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@evolgrinz That seems like a very elegant solution. They've stated that they want the game to be classless, but your strengths are determined at creation - knowing that 18 STR and 10 INT will let you get some awesome smashy skills (that will be stronger because of the stat anyway) faster than awesome mystic skills is appropriate. As long as both are attainable, it all makes sense with everything else.
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This is assuming having a high int will have a big enough bonus to skill learning skills, and then there is the fact you have to do in game tasks to learn/level skills.
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@lovechildbell Well, we also know that learning a skill isn't just "spend x knowledge points, gain skill" - for example, the devs made the example to learn a spell involving seeing it cast (generally on you) repeatedly - to learn it exists - and researching at a library about it before you could spend the points to learn it.
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I'm not convinced this will be an issue at all. From the looks of spotlight #5 every stat is going to have some sort of impact regardless of spec. Save for the very last one having some seemingly specific focuses intended for it.
So if you ask me from the very start the idea that mages will be better because they only need certain stats is out the window. They are losing out in other areas if they choose to focus solely on one stat. Not to mention that we don't even know if accuracy will be something spells need too. If it is then there's even more pressure on casters to be diversified in stats. Hell, what if certain spells require different types of stats to even be used? There's also a chance some could scale off different types of criteria to that of others.
I don't believe this will be an issue. I really don't see it at the moment. Unless spells are incredibly simple and have very little depth to them.. which I kinda hope isn't the case.
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For all of you that plan to play mages and use an argument "you have to still do tasks in game to learn skill" and such..
OK lets just change knowledge learning dependence from INT to PER. I guess since "you still need to do tasks in game" you will not mind this right?
Cool, I though so.
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Good thoughts
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@gothix Since I don't intend to play a mage, I certainly am fine with that XD
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@gothix You could change it to how many times you jerk it for all I care. I'm still gona get skill points, the real gate is still gona be the in game tasks, the only people who should really care are the people worried about having "the best" stats and thats not who this game is made for.
