Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users
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Magic users will end up OP compared to physical users.
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If DEX and PER add nothing significant to magic users (and they do not), then magic users will be OP compared to physical users. "Why", you ask?
Because everyone uses INT to learn and progress, and everyone uses mana to fuel skills.
Now if you have an archer with 20 PER and DEX, and 10 INT, and you have a magic user in lets say 20 INT and CHA (or something), and 10 DEX, they will both be EQUALLY effective in combat, cus they both have their main attributes maxed to 20 BUT magic users will learn faster (due to their main skill also being used for skill progression) and thus progress faster (and progression will take long time), and they will also never lack mana to fuel their skills (INT=mana fueling all theirs skills, while archers for example also needing mana for part of skills, while having INT on only 10 if they wish to max their primary attributes).
This ends up in magic users being OP compared to non magic users that can't boost their INT due to needing to max their other attributes, to be equally effective as mages that boost their INT as their main attribute.
Main problem here is that INT is used for learning (and fueling skills) for EVERY class, while it also being PRIMARY attribute for magic classes.
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SOLUTION 1: make DEX an attribute that's used to learn (and fuel ALL skills) for archers, and make STR do the same for warriors. (This solution is harder to implement, that's why I would suggest solution 2 below.)
SOLUTION 2 (recommended): make a brand new attribute (lets call it WISDOM) that is used for fueling ALL skills for everyone, and used to progress knowledge for everyone, and adds absolutely nothing else for any class.
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INT fueling skills for everyone and affecting learning for everyone (while also being a primary skill for magic users) makes magic users being OP in Fractured.
(Just a thought, but a likely outcome with what we know so far.)
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Need Jacopo here @Prometheus
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He is on vacation, let him rest a bit.
Post not going anywhere.
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Magic users being more OP may or may not be the case. I can't find anywhere solid that says mana drives all skills. Is this for certain or something we guess to be the case? I remember Prometheus posting that stamina drives some primal skills so might it not drive fighting skills? Stamina is likely derived from strength and constitution.
As far as learning/memorizing abilities, we don't know how much INT is enough and 10 might be the plateau of this extra ability to learn/memorize.
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@kellewic said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
I remember Prometheus posting that stamina drives some primal skills so might it not drive fighting skills? Stamina is likely derived from strength and constitution.
Still, archers that need to buff PER and DEX end up fked up even more then, needing to have CON, STR and INT on ~10, if they wanna buff their PER and DEX. That's even worse scenario.
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Making a separate attribute (ie. wisdom) that would drive skills for everyone and affect learning for everyone, while not adding anything more for anyone else would be the most fair option.
Considering all this, I'm getting less likely to play an archer, and I'm thinking that I will very likely go for mage.
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Don't forget that attributes play into other elements as well (such as crafting). It's possible to balance that concept without having to completely redesign the core concept of it. I'd say, wait till Beta, when it's about getting balance right, then if things still seem off, give them your feedback.
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@logain said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
I'd say, wait till Beta, when it's about getting balance right, then if things still seem off, give them your feedback.
At beta it's too late to make major changes if some core element is at issue (like INT being main mage attribute, and also in same time attribute responsible for skill progression), you can't just "re balance" that. You need to make changes to the core, and in beta you can't do that anymore (it's usually too expensive to do that, and often results in many other issues). This is why such feed back and thoughts need to be posted now, and not wait till beta.
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Also if things end up like that, I'll just go as mage. In such scenario, most people will do the same and then GL on finding any other class besides magic users running around.
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One solution is that you increase learning time and mana requirements for intelligence based skills. IIRC Eve Online had something similar to this with their attributes and skills?
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Fact 1: new characters can beat veteran characters due to horizontal progression
Fact 2: learning more abilities faster will just make your character more versitile since you can choose more abilities, not more powerfull
Fact 3: Every mmorpg has classes that progress easier then other classes. Nothing new.
At some point those magic users will hit a point where they hardly progress any further. Melee users will catch up to that. Not a real problem, right?
If there is a balance issue between magic vs melee, then just buff melee dmg and/or increase mana cost for magic skills. Much easier then revamp a core system of the game.
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@Benseine "Fact 1" is assumed and planned by devs, however, if some core element ends up designed with a problem connected to it, then, regardless of the devs wishes and plans, we might end up with unbalanced class, that will be hard to balance later on, due to a problem with core element.
This is why it's good to discuss things now to see what might go wrong. Devs are skilled programmers, and designers, but no human can think about every possible issue alone, this is why forums can help, to bring attention to some possible future problems that might emerge, problems that one might have missed looking into, and might not be simple to fix later on.
Fact 2, skills do become more powerful, from rank 1 to rank 3, and you need memory slots to learn faster, and INT affects that as well.
Fact 3, why wouldn't we have a mmorpg designed so that all the classes progress at approximately same rate?
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People can catch up yes, but if learning time is long, and Fractured does plan it to be long, then certain "classes" progressing much faster then others would be very unfair.
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As far as I can tell, Mages need Perception for accuracy, same as everyone else. And dexterity is all that stands between a wizard and a rogue's concealed ganking, at the moment. Well, a high health probably covers that, too, but it isn't like there isn't a counter to to a wizard, 1v1.
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Add in the fact that all forms of magic use INT from protection spells through to attack spells and you might find that INT becomes an overly dominant stat anyway. Personally I would like some thought to go into diversification of magic wet stats, such that a single stat is not so dominant. Or some reassurance that you won't have godlike mages with magical shielding spells and awesome magical attacks because they can merrily stack a single stat.
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1) Learning rate
Learning rate does not affect game balance in any way.
Even if it did, the solution is to completely remove learning rate from any stat in the first place because that has always been a terrible and self-contradicting idea.
For instance, in Fallout 3 & New Vegas, basically every single character must take 9 Int and then not gain a single level until they perform a specific series of exploits to get the +1 Int surgical augment. This is because Int determines how many skill points you gain per level and therefore your character is weaker the less Int you have regardless of your other stats. This of course adds absolutely no enjoyment to the game and only punishes the player for choosing a free character build and free play style - you know, the things these games are supposed to encourage.
It's a complete lie for "intellect" to determine learning rate to begin with. That's determined solely by how dedicated you are to the skill you want to learn. There are plenty of very talented and distinctly quite stupid home cooks, warriors, artists, etc. both in reality and fiction. "Intellect" is not a linear absolute that makes you "smarter" at every talent under the sun.
Please remove learning rate from any and all stats, and absolutely do not add yet another stat solely for learning rate. That would be a superfluous vanity stat, as everyone will just max it out anyway, so you should just remove it and treat everybody as having maxed out Wisdom.
2) Running out of MP
This will not be an issue in Fractured.
In most MMOs, characters don't run out of MP unless they're fighting for a really long time, in which case they will bring MP regenerating thingies. This will be more expensive if you have less MP but at any high level of play you should be able to afford it anyway.
The main reasons to fight for a really long time are raid bosses and grinding. So far as I am aware, neither of these is an element of Fractured.
Even if it was, the trade-off for mages is that they are very squishy and run out of health faster. If they heal with MP, then they are now running out of MP instead of health.
The mage's higher MP pool will also be balanced by the (presumed) idea that mages will consume MP more rapidly than other classes.
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@fibs said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
the solution is to completely remove learning rate from any stat in the first place
This I would agree with. But if devs do not wish to do this, then at least make a separate stat (wisdom) that adds nothing to any class, besides learning rate. And then let people decide, if they wish to learn faster, or have more other stats in the end game. At least it will be a fair and equal choice for anyone. And it will not be, ok I play mage, so I learn faster in the same time.
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Excuse me if I make a small digression from the specifics of this particular game, however, generally speaking, magic users should be OP compared to -as you call them- physical users (at least in a high fantasy setting) : the archmage sees a big burly warrior coming his way running and screaming madly with a huge two handed sword rised above his head!! -> time stop -> dead. (Ok, It's just an hyperbole
)However, in a game like Fractured and with the Knowledge System, I think the developers will try to bring balance to the different playing styles, so that there are no "uber builds" with specific stat allocations or indespensable/mandatory skills.
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Do we know that all skills will use Int to learn? Maybe some skills will be based on other stats anyway and having a lot of int wont provide benefits for learning those skills.
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@mereni Int increases knowledge gain. Knowledge is used to learn all skills.
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@SunLion in that situation no seasoned veteran would just run towards a magic user willy-nilly ( just throwing that out there) @newbs
and yeah I also agree the devs will try to balance as much as they can we shall only find out when we can play
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isn't this a classless game?
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@target I don't know if it increases it, precisely - just that low intelligence gates it (ie - if you have a 6 int, then you'll only get ~60% (to spit ball a number) of the knowledge you would normally learn, but if you have 10, you'll get 100%, and if you have 20, you'll still get 100%
