Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience"
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When I red the Rhykker article, the worst part imo was those weapon upgrades what you could buy with money. I am not sure how much power those give to players, but at least sounds a really bad idea.
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@Basileus said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
In Elder Scrolls Online, people pay for things like riding lessons (speed up mount speed which is otherwise limited to 1% gain a day until you hit 60% which is maxed), experience scrolls, housing furnishing, houses, and crafting research speed boosts. These things are convenient and don't make the game P2W.
If Fractured wants to turn a good profit, they'll probably have to do the same, as well as have limited cosmetics inside lootboxes to engage with the whales. I know a lot of people hate lootboxes, but as long as it's just cosmetics, it doesn't change the gameplay and it keeps a game profitable and alive with lots of content updates, which is the more important factor.
you have time based progress and not sell bypasses to them. Path of Exile has the best cash shop that i know of. Warframe is second, they do sell speed up crafting, but you can play the game, earn items and sell them for the cash shop currency.
I'm here to dissuade DS from having convenience in the cash shop. i'd rather have craft stations, player built, that can change how fast something is crafted or quantity of items needed to craft. i dont want to see a fee to get a 12 hour crafted item out instantly because you spent 3$ for it.
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@Gothix said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)guild battle (...) Whatever negatively impacts other players, if its gained by cash, its P2W.
@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...) and convenience features(...)
In that case, I'd have to ask, have you ever been part of a war between large guilds, where war doesn't mean 'staged battles', but rather preventing the opponent from actively participating in the game? If so, can we agree that the ability to immediately resupply your fighters and send them back on the field is a crucial determining factor for success?
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@Logain I never was a part of such a war. Especially not, if the only sense of it is "preventing the opponent from actively participating in the game". I always hated it, if player don't play fair and their only goal is it, to destroy other players fun.
But i agree, it is a crucial determining factor if someone is able with bought convenience to influence such a fight.
But i think you also noticed, that my convience features that you quoted was pointed to ingame things thats more roleplayfeatures.
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@Psymantis said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
[...] I loved the beta of a game called City of Steam but it launched with an asian publisher and constantly demanded feeding, like a greedy pet. They apparently separated from the publisher (I'd left before that) to try to survive but It was ruined beyond redemption by then and it closed down. They might have made money in the short term with their greed but wouldn't they have been better off thinking longer term? [...]
Modern companies, especially mobile companies, do make money long-term from this strategy. This is because of a technique called asset-flipping: developing one game, or even stealing somebody else's, and re-releasing basically the exact same game multiple times with only cosmetic changes.
The one iteration of the game failing means nothing to them. They will do the bare minimum needed to release it again with minor changes until this repeating scam stops working.
Of course, Fractured is not an asset-flip... but it's why the bulk of companies practice this. Digital video games are rapidly becoming a bootleg market just like China and Russia, probably because entities from those nations own controlling shares of several international corporations, and only indie devs remain as any show of force against it.
@Basileus said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
In Elder Scrolls Online, people pay for things like riding lessons (speed up mount speed which is otherwise limited to 1% gain a day until you hit 60% which is maxed), experience scrolls, housing furnishing, houses, and crafting research speed boosts. These things are convenient and don't make the game P2W.
Elder Scrolls Online is a very poor example, as the game is sold in consequential installations. The store itself considers most content beyond the base game purchase to be DLC, referring to the biggest content packs as "expansions". ESO's expansions and content DLC are most certainly Pay 2 Win, as the best equipment sets in the game come from the expansions / DLC as untradeable dungeon loot, you can't craft jewelry at all without Sommerset, and every new zone adds new quest lines and Skyshards that boost your skill point cap.
If you're one of those people who considers earning ingame gold faster (and thus being better able to afford important items in the player market) to be "pay 2 win", then it's even worse, because whatever the newest content is is also the best content to farm for gold. Newer style motifs and mats are worth much more on the market, and it's far more expensive to purchase for Jewelrycrafting than it is for any of the older crafting lines (though you can harvest Jewelrycrafting mats without Sommerset, you just can't use them.)
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I'd hate to see someone drop $5k (or more) into the game to speed up crafting or gathering or other time duration because a siege is going on. it should be fought based on what resources were gathered and produced during peace.
eve online already has this. i posted in another thread that someone spent $70k and they weren't even winning the war.
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@FibS I play ESO. What you are forgetting here is that ESO's expansions become DLC about a year after launch, so they can just be bought using Crowns, which are traded for in-game gold. Yes, they are pay2win but it's time limited pay2win. Eventually everything can be obtained.
@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
eve online already has this. i posted in another thread that someone spent $70k and they weren't even winning the war.
WTF?
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@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)if player don't play fair and their only goal is it, to destroy other players fun(...)
That's a matter of perspective. If it is possible in a game and not prohibited by the rules, I'd argue that it is fair. And it doesn't have to destroy the other players fun. Basically every BRAWL and partially even MOBA out there focuses around forcing that point. The fun can derive from developing a valid underdog strategy, just that people rarely bother with that since it means effort and most people would rather simply shrug, surrender and head to the next easy casual game.
@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)convience features that you quoted was pointed to ingame things thats more roleplayfeatures.
You didn't specifically outline what 'convenience' meant, but hinted at some 'time saving' that could be then spent in a tavern instead. My point of warning in such a case is always that, yes, while that saved time can be spent roleplaying in a tavern, a more meta-optimized person would not spend the saved time in a tavern, but to gain a significant advantage.
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@Logain you underestimate the presence of preetty girls being in a tavern. I think that tavern will even have a queue.
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@Logain said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
That's a matter of perspective.
Exactly!
My Perspective is, if you start to mobbing another player, it is not fair anymore, even it is covered by the rules.
"I am allowed to..." does not mean "I need to do it."As for the tavern convenience, to be more specific - beside the very specific answer by @Gothix - could be a special buff that you can get, if you visit a Bartender
More specific we can't be, because we don't know every detail of developement and what they will give us in our hands, to play out their idea about the 3 different playstyles combined in one single MMO.Thats because most of us are here i bet.
Thats because we are all concerned about and at the same time curious to see how they will get it.
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Unfortunately the latter is becoming a more and more rare quality. Especially for more niche games, which I would argue fractured is.
Dual universe is giving it a try, hope it pans out for them. As once again, niche game. Thankfully they are going down the PLEX route, hopefully that will keep in the anti subs people.
Anyway, I think it is clear they do not want pay to win in the traditional sense. But everyone has a different definition, hard to please everyone while remaining viable. Heck, some would complain PLEX was p2w back in the old sub model and as such DU is p2w
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@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)could be a special buff that you can get, if you visit a Bartender(...)
See, I read your suggestion the other way round, convenience to save time that you could then spend in the tavern. But if you suggest something in the tavern granting a benefit that's fine with me, though I don't know how you'd handle real life payments for that?
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@Logain said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)could be a special buff that you can get, if you visit a Bartender(...)
See, I read your suggestion the other way round, convenience to save time that you could then spend in the tavern. But if you suggest something in the tavern granting a benefit that's fine with me, though I don't know how you'd handle real life payments for that?
Well, for now i know the only planned Convenience is the Carpenter NPC and the Knowledge Slots.
But i could imagine to have per example a guaranteed Bartender NPC - that would be interesting for at least me and Gothix, if we build up our Tavern Network.
But we don't know how NPC work ingame right now.
Probably there is no need for buying permanent NPCs, because they come by themself as soon you have a special building. Who knows
But to be honest, my short excursion was not seriously pointed to payed features.
I just wanted to throw in some fun thing, since i think we still discussed the last 2 years enough about possible P2W. Dynamight stated clearly, they don't like P2W and gambles.
All we can do is to trust them for now, that they are honest.The whole discussion came up again, because of the video that Jetah posted and his (still not proofed) opinion, that Jacopo/Prometheus somewhere mentioned to want to build in more of this convenience stuff in the shop.
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i'm trying to understand their desire for an optional subscription. there are games without it that are doing very well.
Dynamight stated clearly, they don't like P2W and gambles.
but p2w will still happen because trade exist. it wont be from DS to the players but via 3rd party.
I did find this where Znirf says "No, you won't be able to pay for speeding up processes in Fractured." so that's good to hear.
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@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
via 3rd party.
Well this problem hit any game that will have an interesting big playerbase.
Here is the question, what will they do against it, which technical possibilities they have and how they react on reported obvisious "Chinafarmer" or Levelingservices.But thats a totally different point than looking to P2W features.
@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
I did find this where Znirf says "No, you won't be able to pay for speeding up processes in Fractured." so that's good to hear.
Thank you for the link. It proofs my opinion about their path and that it was maybe previously a misunderstanding by you of something Jacopo said in Q&A.
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@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
problem about development is that things previously stated can be redacted.
i was looking through some of the videos but I can hardly hear them and they're all 1h long and I wont watch 5+ hours just to find it.
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@Jetah i get that, don‘t worry about. I don‘t need really a proof.
We just can tell them, that we are here because of their statement about not to like p2w and gambles.
If they follow that line, we will see in 2 years.
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@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Jetah i get that, don‘t worry about. I don‘t need really a proof.
We just can tell them, that we are here because of their statement about not to like p2w and gambles.
If they follow that line, we will see in 2 years.it would be neat to have a confirmation from @Prometheus or @Znirf but I'm not sure they have time. Actually another spotlight is due! the last spotlight was july 2018...
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@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...) I'm not sure they have time. Actually another spotlight is due! the last spotlight was july 2018...
I'd much rather they focus on development right now. The recent conversion was a massive step for them, but one that threw their schedule out of the window.
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@Logain P2W is very simple, it generally refers to paying for an advantage that players who normally play the game just cannot get. Usually it is restricted to things like Asian MMOs, where you can buy a sword that does say, 5 times the damage of anything lootable or craftable in game.
In games like EVE, there is no P2W, because even if you can buy ISK with PLEX (bought with IRL money), the ISK can be gotten in game as well, and everything in the game is made by players in some manner (aside from the starter safe zone stations).
