A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression"
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@target said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
@myux said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
One of the key aspects to making an MMO fun to play and progress in is the need to get stronger. The way MMOs get the player to move forward and experience new content is generally through the promise of getting stronger. The less power that you get from bettering your gear or skills, the less incentive there is. The less incentive there is to get stronger, the less content the player wants to do. Making rewards meaningful is incredibly important for the longevity of a game and I dearly hope the devs keep that in mind.
Guild Wars 1 had almost non-existant gear progression, and in 2 of the 3 Guild Wars 1 campaigns, you would hit max level before leaving the tutorial/beginner island. At that point your main progression was acquiring new skills, not unlike Fractured. That game was successful enough to spawn Guild Wars 2 which was a huge and expensive project. You don't need to be constantly increasing in power to have satisfying progression.
Now, in a PvP perspective, PKing in a game like this is designed around risk vs reward. Use more valuable stuff you can potentially lose, and you'll do better. With a nonexistent power gap, both the risk AND the reward is gone. PKing is no longer dangerous and as a result its no longer tense or interesting
This is assuming the only reason to kill people is for their gear. Silkroad Online(and I believe Archeage) had a merchant/caravan mechanic where player merchants could buy goods from one city and would transport them on camels and elephants to another city. The farther the distance between cities, the more they would make. Other players could flag themselves as thieves and try to kill the merchants and steal their loot so that they could sell it themselves. Silkroad Online didn't have full loot, but the risk of loss could still be tense.
In Fractured, I imagine people carting around expensive resources aren't going to feel the game isn't tense enough for them. A gulid that has successfully conquered a city and taken it as their own aren't going to feel unrewarded because because their enemies didn't have gear that they wanted. Someone who gets satisfaction from PKing everyone they see and earning their reputation as a PKing asshole is still going to have that satisfaction regardless of the gear they can loot. You don't need gear power progression to have rewarding PvP.
GW1 afaik didn't have a PK system and was a lot more relaxed and casual than other MMOs at its time, so its progression system flowed well with that. In a hardcore PK game like this game on the PK worlds, it wouldn't flow nearly as well because generally PK competition is designed around progression and money and whatnot.
And I know from plenty of personal experience that people don't need an incentive to PK or PvP, my main PvP MMO right now barely rewards it at all, but its community and decent combat mechanics make it fun. Issue is that I worry about the population of PvPers and PKing targets. Incentives to PvP get people into it, which i stated in the OP.
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@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
Gosh, it's almost like this isn't an RPG just because it's "an MMO" or something.
I always love seeing all these would be RPG experts running their mouths about "the reason to PK" and other things they clearly don't really understand. >_>
So are you gonna tell me why you think having an incentive to PvP would be a bad idea or you just gonna make empty aggressive posts.
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A lack of constant grinding for better stats doesn't preclude progression. An emphasis on horizontal progression typically involves hunting for rare or tough to find alternatives. Variants that while not better stat wise, unlock new ways of playing. Plus rare things in general can just be fun to aim for.
In games like GW2 you hit a stat well pretty quickly yet they've had a ton of people playing for years and years now. Have a look at how they approach expansions to get a feel for how one of those systems can work out. Of course that game does have vertical progression early game, more than Fractured will.. but you can still hit the cap very fast and those goal posts don't get moved. So it does act as a solid example regardless.
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gear will be needed to travel. naked player should die faster than a geared player. gear is easily replaceable at least on a basic to intermediate level.
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@myux said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
So are you gonna tell me why you think having an incentive to PvP would be a bad idea or you just gonna make empty aggressive posts.
No, actually, I rather won't speak in defense of a point I never made. You can try again when you're interested in being honest, though.
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@fibs So you're just gonna... try and insult me despite not having anything to add to the conversation. aite. nice to see the pveer scene is getting nice and toxic already
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Everyone should just chill we will know more in good time.
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I guess I don't see the whole "must get awesome gear" thing as a big deal since I'm primarily a PvE guy.
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@warpuppy said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
I guess I don't see the whole "must get awesome gear" thing as a big deal since I'm primarily a PvE guy.
Yeah, if the longevity and population of the game wasn't something to worry about I wouldn't mind gear and other items being unimportant either. This is only really a topic worth your time if you're actively wanting to help the PvP/PK scene.
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@myux Honestly, there are several ways to make gear that is "equally as good" as starting armor, but creates benefits in various ways that make them more valuable to certain individuals - the trick is properly balancing these benefits and drawbacks - how much bonus damage to Martial Arts skills is worth losing 1 point of damage reduction (not much for an in and out style of fighting, quite a bit for a brawler) - is a movement buff worth additional cooldown at some point? (probably not, though it could be worth it for tanks and some warfare users favoring big drawn-out moves, or mages that play with DoT fields or kiting)
Getting this sort of thing is stupidly hard, and it rarely is "right" every time (a light DoT bonus based on initial strike damage might be weak for one player, and exceedingly useful to another, based on things like playstyle and skill choices, for example, before you get into the question of "what's an equivalent de-buff to balance it"), but it seems like the devs are devoted to this sort of balancing for gear - if they get it "right enough" then the gear will certainly be worthwhile, "neutral rate" though it may be by some standard.
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@myux said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
if the longevity and population of the game wasn't something to worry about, I wouldn't mind gear and other items being unimportant either.
But thats the point.
Yes, there is something about to worry about todays player, this kind who just want a fast success and want higher and higher.
But Fractured is all about horizontal playing, not vertically.
And the second point is, even we get such player, you still don't need to mind, because all exlains by Jacopo pointing out, that every item you will craft is important.
If they get the system this way they told us, it will be every equip/item which you can craft important in this or another kind.
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The problem is that people are coming in here expecting a typical RPG with a beginning and an end - defined by grinding - and they're not about to get it. They're getting a virtual world, almost like Second Life but more specialized and with actual gameplay elements.
It seems some players are literally unable to comprehend this and no matter how many times you tell them, it bounces off and they keep going like you said nothing, i.e. they are utterly delusional.
But eventually, they'll play the game and be stunned by the reality of it. And if that chases off the most toxic PKers, good, the game will be better without them. Only people who actually like PVP and/or are actually good at it will remain, rather than frail egotists who need a gear / headcount superiority to make up for skill.
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@myux, @fibs Literally a PVPer plays for the fame not for the item.
And fame in its special way will they get.
We never should forget, there will be things like Prestige and Alignments, there is much space for having a goal about being famous.The loot the PVPer can get is just a plus for their effort.
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@kralith I think that you have a pretty good point - a pvp'er here for glory is going to be a very happy camper, since execution and tactics are going to be so critical...though hopefully they don't actually camp 9_9 XD I think Fibs has a point too, though - This game's balance does discourage those looking to bully or loot - unlike most games, attacking a new player is actually risky still, while there is very limited loot and xp to acquire, hurting the viability of grouping for a many-on-one hunt to swing the odds. I mean, it will still probably happen - there are sufficient jerks in the world at large XD but not to the degree found in some games. (personally, I like the glory pvp'ers. they generally seem to handle losses gracefully...about 50% of the time XD but, seriously, if someone is dueling for the challenge, I love having them around)
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@kralith said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
@myux, @fibs Literally a PVPer plays for the fame not for the item.
And fame in its special way will they get.
We never should forget, there will be things like Prestige and Alignments, there is much space for having a goal about being famous.The loot the PVPer can get is just a plus for their effort.
why would you pvp for fame. das weird. all i pvp for is either enjoying good mechanics and competing against other players, or challenging myself. drama is always a big plus, too. except if the games horizontal progression isn't designed properly and isn't balanced well (which is a very easy mistake to make) then only players who play for pvps sake will play. thats not the majority of an MMOs playerbase. there needs to be a reason why more nervous or casual players would wanna dabble into pvp, otherwise the pvp community will just be a circlejerk and there'll be no one new or interesting to fight.
@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
The problem is that people are coming in here expecting a typical RPG with a beginning and an end
im pretty sure literally no one goes into an MMO expecting a proper end, especially one that calls itself a sandbox everywhere, so im not entirely sure where youre seeing these people.
@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
It seems some players are literally unable to comprehend this and no matter how many times you tell them, it bounces off and they keep going like you said nothing, i.e. they are utterly delusional.
have you considered maybe 1. youre misunderstanding people or 2. youre wording your opinions poorly/vaguely
@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":
But eventually, they'll play the game and be stunned by the reality of it. And if that chases off the most toxic PKers, good, the game will be better without them. Only people who actually like PVP and/or are actually good at it will remain, rather than frail egotists who need a gear / headcount superiority to make up for skill.
the playerbase falling isn't a good thing. the less people there are, the more static the game is, and the more boring it is. then all of the PvPers who enjoy the game will leave out of boredom. this isn't a singleplayer game, there arent magically people who you can play with if no one else wants to play it.
i dont quite remember the term for it but there is a HUGE factor in the popularity of MMOs being how many people are playing it. if theres more people playing, the playercount curve will keep escalating. whereas if theres less people playing, the playercount curve will take a huge dive and the game wont be able to afford its own servers. you sure as hell can't play a circlejerk mmo if the servers are shut down, i can guarentee you that.
your issue from what im seeing is that you consider your opinions to be widely accepted among a large portion of mmo players when it just isnt the case. around 95% of players will never consider any of this shit and just wanna play the damn game and do what they wanna do. if theres no reason for them to attempt to start pvp, theres less of a chance for them to bother. that's all im saying and quite frankly im not sure how you manage to misunderstand it so hard that you feel the need to insult everyone
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Look beyond the gear.
I'm glad fame was brought up, I know it was specifically talked about by the devs, as one of the reasons why people will go out into the world and explore, pvp and do things, as there will be a pretty decent reward system for players surrounding fame here, and yes, loads of people pvp for fame. Or do anything really, leaderboards are always a good metric to put into a game.
But with regards to the gear specifically, players aren't going to be running around in this one looking for better gear. They may want better kills stats for their prestige, but they aren't going to be trying to kill someone for better gear. First, it doesn't exist, and second, it's a skill based game, so potentially a newbie could pk a veteran player if said newbie had a better skill tree and was better with their mouse and keyboard.
I don't care how big your gun is, if you can't hit the target type of thing.
But look beyond the gear. Progression in the game, is going to rely in part upon having a bigger and better base of operations too, so just because it's super easy to go out and get a weapon to go start killing things with, doesn't mean it's going to be easy to get a lot of stuff really fast. And I imagine that creating a metropolis will be an important thing to get going on really quickly so you're going to likely need a lot of stuff to do that, a lot of things can't be made without high end cities and buildings, so if you want to succeed, you're going to have to hit people for things other than their gear.
Cause you want to get that metropolis rolling before they do, right? You have to keep them from getting whatever they've collected home, and hey, why not take it home yourself in the meantime, save you the trouble of collecting it. Or hey, why not team up with some like minded individuals and go lay siege to a town.
Yeah, so those one on one fights for whoever has the bigger brighter weapon? Look past those, still plenty of reason to risk, still plenty of reason to fight.
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I suspect that gear does "get better", but in a more horizontal fashion than vertical.
Lets say that Iron Armour has an armour value of 25% and negates that much physical damage.
It could be that elementally aligned golden armour has an armour value of 25% vs physical damage AND 50% against its elemental speciality, but -25% against the opposite element (i.e. fire / ice). This might make the armour great for fighting certain builds or monsters and pretty bad against others... but generally the same as iron armour vs the majority. And it might take a lot of rare resources to make.So is it worth Pvping to get? Hell yes if the person wearing it was doing so because most demons use fire... and so it would be equally useful to a demon for the same reason!!
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I would actually love that gear progression is horizontal, and means that "better" gear becomes more customizable.
So just a crude example (I know stats will not be distributed in this large amount, exact numbers aren't the point here):
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Basic gear item: 10 stats, you can only put all 10 in same stat (all 10 to INT, or all 10 to DEX etc).
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Medium level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now put these 10 stats into 2 attributes of your choice equally (5 to INT and 5 to CON for example)
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High level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now distribute to 3 attributes of your choice and distribute how you like (for example (2 to INT, 3 to CON, 5 to CHA)
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Max level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now distribute to any number of attributes you wan and how you want, total freedom (example, 2 CON, 2 INT, 1 DEX, 4 STR, 1 CHA, or however you want).
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