heyo this game seems real neat and id love to try it out but i have a MASSIVE distaste towards moba-like click to move controls. can yall gimme uhhhhhhhhh wasd ~(˘▾˘~)

didnt think the discussion in here would be so spicy lol ok ill explain better

so implementing an entirely new control scheme is very far from easily done in a day, but i think the benefits would be good. u have to consider who your playerbase is when it comes to typical MMOs (by typical i mean open world rpg and whatnot). as popular as click to move mobas have gotten in recent times, i dont believe their control scheme would translate well to a more relaxed and flexible gameplay style like an RPG.

click to move is more of a singular gameplay style way of controlling. its essentially made for being able to click a location so you can check on other stuff thats important while doing that. in a typical mmo, all you really need to keep track of is your character. if theres no camera to fly around with while your character is moving around, theres no real point of click to move. which is why games like battlerite chose WASD controls while being moba-styled too. its pure combat, and wasd offers much more precision, and frees up the use of the mouse to just aiming attacks. im very much a competitive pvper and the idea of the combat being me having to juggle movement and aiming attacks with the mouse just sounds awful to me.

this definitely isnt a "PUT THIS IN OR YOUR GAME WILL FUCKIN FAIL" thing, but for people with a distaste towards typical moba controls, itll make us feel a lot more comfy and welcome.

the concept of "hand holding" isnt a simple "you either do it or you dont" thing. theres an extent to where you absolutely need a tutorial and need to decide how much you want the player to figure out on their own. obviously for people following the game since early as hell development u aint gonna need much of a tutorial about anything other than controls, but tutorials are supposed to be designed around people who pick the game up without knowing much about it.

as for my preferred amount of tutorialization, basic controls at the start, tell em how to kill a thing, afterwards give the option to talk to NPCs or something to learn how the more mechanical stuff works. and make use out of hovering over stuff!!!! cant tell the amount of times i wanted to know exactly what DEX did but there was no way to know in-game.

haha. furry.

no wait you actually said that in the op post. so much for my joke

thats...an incredibly specific thing to be mad about? why is character build customization an issue? also im pretty sure this game isn't gonna be a trinity role game, tanks might not really exist as they do in WoW+clones.

@kralith "gear that's hard to get" is all I need (durability helps too), but i'm not certain on if that will actually be the case in execution. All of the developer notes put emphasis on how the game "isn't a grind", which could mean the supposed difficult to obtain materials would actually be a simple task for someone in endgame.

Also, I understand perfectly what you're trying to say, but you're assuming too many things about how the game will be designed when everything is uncertain currently. There's no way to know if anything will actually be rare and valuable or not, because the devs could make a poor estimation.

and i could do without you pretending i'm an idiot when it's just you not considering the wider picture. Developers aren't robots, they can and will make mistakes. All my post is about is a request for them to be careful around a delicate mechanic. So chill with the passive aggression.

hewwo >w<

apparently your functional skill limit will be dependant on how exactly knowledge works, and if theres a limit on that. id assume that if you explore every corner of the (RANDOMLY GENERATED) world then you're probably gonna have more than enough knowledge to level everything up, and that doesnt account for if theres repeatable methods to grind knowledge

@gothix said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

I would actually love that gear progression is horizontal, and means that "better" gear becomes more customizable.

So just a crude example (I know stats will not be distributed in this large amount, exact numbers aren't the point here):

• Basic gear item: 10 stats, you can only put all 10 in same stat (all 10 to INT, or all 10 to DEX etc).

• Medium level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now put these 10 stats into 2 attributes of your choice equally (5 to INT and 5 to CON for example)

• High level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now distribute to 3 attributes of your choice and distribute how you like (for example (2 to INT, 3 to CON, 5 to CHA)

• Max level gear item: also 10 stats, but you can now distribute to any number of attributes you wan and how you want, total freedom (example, 2 CON, 2 INT, 1 DEX, 4 STR, 1 CHA, or however you want).

yeah thats the kinda progression im hoping for honestly. tho if certain builds have dump stats that would result in essentially a vertical curve. i.e. if INT is entirely useless for physical damage builds then theres no downside to being able to take more points out of it.

@kralith said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

@myux, @fibs Literally a PVPer plays for the fame not for the item.
And fame in its special way will they get.
We never should forget, there will be things like Prestige and Alignments, there is much space for having a goal about being famous.

The loot the PVPer can get is just a plus for their effort.

why would you pvp for fame. das weird. all i pvp for is either enjoying good mechanics and competing against other players, or challenging myself. drama is always a big plus, too. except if the games horizontal progression isn't designed properly and isn't balanced well (which is a very easy mistake to make) then only players who play for pvps sake will play. thats not the majority of an MMOs playerbase. there needs to be a reason why more nervous or casual players would wanna dabble into pvp, otherwise the pvp community will just be a circlejerk and there'll be no one new or interesting to fight.

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

The problem is that people are coming in here expecting a typical RPG with a beginning and an end

im pretty sure literally no one goes into an MMO expecting a proper end, especially one that calls itself a sandbox everywhere, so im not entirely sure where youre seeing these people.

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

It seems some players are literally unable to comprehend this and no matter how many times you tell them, it bounces off and they keep going like you said nothing, i.e. they are utterly delusional.

have you considered maybe 1. youre misunderstanding people or 2. youre wording your opinions poorly/vaguely

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

But eventually, they'll play the game and be stunned by the reality of it. And if that chases off the most toxic PKers, good, the game will be better without them. Only people who actually like PVP and/or are actually good at it will remain, rather than frail egotists who need a gear / headcount superiority to make up for skill.

the playerbase falling isn't a good thing. the less people there are, the more static the game is, and the more boring it is. then all of the PvPers who enjoy the game will leave out of boredom. this isn't a singleplayer game, there arent magically people who you can play with if no one else wants to play it.

i dont quite remember the term for it but there is a HUGE factor in the popularity of MMOs being how many people are playing it. if theres more people playing, the playercount curve will keep escalating. whereas if theres less people playing, the playercount curve will take a huge dive and the game wont be able to afford its own servers. you sure as hell can't play a circlejerk mmo if the servers are shut down, i can guarentee you that.

your issue from what im seeing is that you consider your opinions to be widely accepted among a large portion of mmo players when it just isnt the case. around 95% of players will never consider any of this shit and just wanna play the damn game and do what they wanna do. if theres no reason for them to attempt to start pvp, theres less of a chance for them to bother. that's all im saying and quite frankly im not sure how you manage to misunderstand it so hard that you feel the need to insult everyone

@jozef said in GamesCom Here I Come! And You?:

@prometheus said in GamesCom Here I Come! And You?:

while I'm not busy talking with some publisher and so on.

I understand that making this game requires money and professional help, but please don't let any publisher change your vision for the game. This game doesn't need to be the next generic, caters to all kind, mmorpg. All that matters is that you and your team can make a decent living and can make the game you want to make.

PS: Köln is a three hour drive by car for me, one way, so I won't be joining you.

That isn't what people in the industry uh, talk about, when they're just chatting casually. Not everything is a business proposition, especially at a fun convention. Let the mans talk with some other professionals.

@warpuppy said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

I guess I don't see the whole "must get awesome gear" thing as a big deal since I'm primarily a PvE guy.

Yeah, if the longevity and population of the game wasn't something to worry about I wouldn't mind gear and other items being unimportant either. This is only really a topic worth your time if you're actively wanting to help the PvP/PK scene.

@loxreaten said in NO tank mages:

Dude. It's a sandbox game. Theres obviously a tank mage build

not necessarily. sandbox dont mean literally anything can happen. plus the definition of tank can be surprisingly flexible so really it depends on what OP considers a tank

@fibs So you're just gonna... try and insult me despite not having anything to add to the conversation. aite. nice to see the pveer scene is getting nice and toxic already

@fibs said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

Gosh, it's almost like this isn't an RPG just because it's "an MMO" or something.

I always love seeing all these would be RPG experts running their mouths about "the reason to PK" and other things they clearly don't really understand. >_>

So are you gonna tell me why you think having an incentive to PvP would be a bad idea or you just gonna make empty aggressive posts.

@target said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

@myux said in A Point of Concern: "Horizontal Progression":

One of the key aspects to making an MMO fun to play and progress in is the need to get stronger. The way MMOs get the player to move forward and experience new content is generally through the promise of getting stronger. The less power that you get from bettering your gear or skills, the less incentive there is. The less incentive there is to get stronger, the less content the player wants to do. Making rewards meaningful is incredibly important for the longevity of a game and I dearly hope the devs keep that in mind.

Guild Wars 1 had almost non-existant gear progression, and in 2 of the 3 Guild Wars 1 campaigns, you would hit max level before leaving the tutorial/beginner island. At that point your main progression was acquiring new skills, not unlike Fractured. That game was successful enough to spawn Guild Wars 2 which was a huge and expensive project. You don't need to be constantly increasing in power to have satisfying progression.

Now, in a PvP perspective, PKing in a game like this is designed around risk vs reward. Use more valuable stuff you can potentially lose, and you'll do better. With a nonexistent power gap, both the risk AND the reward is gone. PKing is no longer dangerous and as a result its no longer tense or interesting

This is assuming the only reason to kill people is for their gear. Silkroad Online(and I believe Archeage) had a merchant/caravan mechanic where player merchants could buy goods from one city and would transport them on camels and elephants to another city. The farther the distance between cities, the more they would make. Other players could flag themselves as thieves and try to kill the merchants and steal their loot so that they could sell it themselves. Silkroad Online didn't have full loot, but the risk of loss could still be tense.

In Fractured, I imagine people carting around expensive resources aren't going to feel the game isn't tense enough for them. A gulid that has successfully conquered a city and taken it as their own aren't going to feel unrewarded because because their enemies didn't have gear that they wanted. Someone who gets satisfaction from PKing everyone they see and earning their reputation as a PKing asshole is still going to have that satisfaction regardless of the gear they can loot. You don't need gear power progression to have rewarding PvP.

GW1 afaik didn't have a PK system and was a lot more relaxed and casual than other MMOs at its time, so its progression system flowed well with that. In a hardcore PK game like this game on the PK worlds, it wouldn't flow nearly as well because generally PK competition is designed around progression and money and whatnot.

And I know from plenty of personal experience that people don't need an incentive to PK or PvP, my main PvP MMO right now barely rewards it at all, but its community and decent combat mechanics make it fun. Issue is that I worry about the population of PvPers and PKing targets. Incentives to PvP get people into it, which i stated in the OP.