Would love to see mob loot drops tied to knowledge
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Right now the ingredient drops of animal mobs are quite random, and oddly so (how come most rabbits I kill don't have feet?)
I'd love to see the following system:
- You kill an animal
- You skin/butcher an animal, if you have the right tool
- Your loot results are determined by your knowledge of the animal (and perhaps the quality/type of tool)
- RNG has no part!
The animal knowledge trees would thus have ingredient unlocks as well as abilities, which would make it even more interesting to get knowledge for creatures without abilities (like rabbits!).
So, at rabbit knowledge level x%, you unlock the ability to always loot a rabbit foot.
As to humanoid mobs like goblins, this system could still work, but only for ingredients that are innate to their bodies, like tongues (and not simply something they might be carrying).
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I wonder if crafting will be open to any class, or if you will need to put points into it.
I made a new char with high charisma and luck trying to see the difference in drops.
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@Roccandil I think RNG should still have a part. Artificial extensions to games make them longer, and grinding becomes less mechanical. I reckon you have an amazing idea, however, I personally believe that removing RNG isn't an option. When I got to this test, i was happily surprised that trees didn't give 5 twigs every time, regardless of tree. Variation makes the game more fun.
However, I believe, coming from your idea, the knowledge system should give a higher chance to drop rarer loot, such as rabbit feet. For example, at 0% knowledge on a rabbit you have 5% chance to get a rabbit foot, at 25% knowledge, you have a 10% chance, at 50% you have a 15% chance and at 100% you have a 20% chance. Considering how fast your knowledge goes up, and that rabbit feet are SUPPOSED to be rare, even 20% is a bit high potentially, but it's a rough draft ^c^
As much as i know some people hate RNG... for the most part, it keeps the game interesting. Seeing the exact thing over and over gets stale very quickly. RNG is the staple of most games today and it adds major replayability.
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RNG is a way to mask a lack of real content by increasing repetition; in short, RNG makes bad systems look better. In the process, RNG devalues a player's time and effort.
Despite that, RNG-based systems attract customers, for much the same reasons that lotteries and casinos attract customers. RNG offers an easy out to developers, and a significant percentage of people like it, so I get why it's common.
I prefer deterministic systems that provide emergent gameplay, however, chess perhaps being the quintessential example of RNG-free mechanics with incredible replayability (go being another).
At any rate, for me RNG reduces replayability.
The more RNG a game has, the less I will play it.
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@Roccandil you know that there will be tons of rng (save throws for example) in the background of the game?
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@Roccandil said in Would love to see mob loot drops tied to knowledge:
RNG is a way to mask a lack of real content by increasing repetition; in short, RNG makes bad systems look better. In the process, RNG devalues a player's time and effort.
so you can look at people on the street (obviously not right now) and know what they have in their pockets? i dont know everything women keep in their purse but i'm sure 50% will be different in each one.
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I liked the gathering professions in WoW for BfA, where the higher you get (three ranks) the more efficient you are at gathering. So it's not that you're magically creating more matter out of nothing, but you're more efficient and creating less waste.
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That would be so cool !
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@Roccandil said in Would love to see mob loot drops tied to knowledge:
oddly so (how come most rabbits I kill don't have feet?)
love this, so true
@Manaia said in Would love to see mob loot drops tied to knowledge:
where the higher you get (three ranks) the more efficient you are at gathering
This is more inline with what I would suggest.. As you increase in rank/tier/experience, possible chance to gather rare item(s) increases.
I get we're in for a grind, I'm okay with it. I would rather be rewarded with efficiency and more time to do more entertaining things with my experience. I'll put in the work, just want some reward. I think this describes a fair logical mechanic that gives beginners something to work towards and veterans something rewarding enough.
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Yeah, and I really don't like that kind of combat system (I endured it in Baldur's Gate II, simply because of how good the atmosphere was).
Albion's fundamental combat, for instance, has little to no RNG, and I far prefer it. One major consequence is that it's impossible in Albion to blame a defeat on RNG. When I played World of Tanks, however, blaming penetration or dispersion RNG was very easy (and maybe even occasionally true
).The combat system isn't everything, though, and I'm curious to see how the Fractured big picture plays out.
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I feel like this would sap any value the item has. Unless they are designing a game where everyone will be handing out the best items with the best enchants because drops are 100% and nothing is rare. This would mean they need an amazing PVP scene or some sort of amazing PVE content that can take the rest of the time.
Though I do love the idea of knowledge playing into drop rates. Though not to an extreme degree.
I think your idea would be fantastic if the game was designed around it. Using emergent gameplay as an example. If they made a game where a rabbit dropped its rare drop everytime but instead of making the drop rare they made it so if people killed all the rabbits they were gone for the day/week. And instead people had to take the time to breed them. That would create a game where I think your idea works perfectly. And enemy guilds would likely send in people to kill those farms creating game content that is player driven.
As it is now though I think that would just devalue enchants/items.
We already ignore most creatures in the game because we don't need to kill them. Right now if you see a fox/rabbit it is exciting because you might get a tail/foot and is probably one of the more sought after kills. 100% drop and they would just be another creature people ignore.
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@Whisper said in Would love to see mob loot drops tied to knowledge:
100% drop and they would just be another creature people ignore.
So how I've observed other MMO's handling this, is it doesn't increase the base drop rate, it adds a multiplier to the existing one. So let's say Tier 1 (base knowledge) you have a 3% chance at getting a rabbit foot. Tier 2 is 10% multiplier and Tier 3 is a 25% multiplier. That means that the rabbits foot per tier is: 3%, 3.3%, and 3.75%. This still keeps rare items rare, and common ones just...in more bulk, which shouldn't matter too much due to being common.
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I like the idea of a knowledge-based loot system. It got me thinking, what kind of loot would I like to see? Should everything drop loot? Is farming creatures for loot (random or otherwise) what we would like to see in this game?
I think little loot in the game is better. I don't want to farm things to get money, I want to do more meaningful things (what that is, I have no idea). I like the idea increasing the drop rates based off knowledge (including adding loot to the table/increasing beyond 0% chance to drop). But I would prefer all drops to be meaningful. Let everything be used for something.
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Lower profession skill = RNG results (because you mess the things up often)
Higher skill results = RNG is non existent, or very minimal (because you are professional, who very rarely messes up)Tools may be part of factor as well, worse tools, better tools.
Perhaps how well rested you are as well?
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I think it would be great to have intellignece, knowledge, and tools to have impact on the outcome of loot, but still rng has to be in it (like in life sometimes shit can happen and you get nothing), so yea rng should be about 40% of the loot, while the rest can control most of the stuff, but the knowledge is wide so it should be wide in the game too (and here we get species, and subspecies)
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@Whisper said in Would love to see mob loot drops tied to knowledge:
I think your idea would be fantastic if the game was designed around it. Using emergent gameplay as an example. If they made a game where a rabbit dropped its rare drop everytime but instead of making the drop rare they made it so if people killed all the rabbits they were gone for the day/week. And instead people had to take the time to breed them. That would create a game where I think your idea works perfectly. And enemy guilds would likely send in people to kill those farms creating game content that is player driven.
Yes, this is exactly the sort of thing I'm referring to.
Kill rates determining spawn rates means the ecosystem is dynamic (and I'd love to see that expanded).Breeders/farmers would have a reason to raise rabbits and get the knowledge/materials to do so, while also spending the opportunity cost on rabbits instead of raising/farming something else. Contrarily, those who just want to strip-clear resources would need to roam across the world instead of camping a rabbit spawn.
That would also lend diversity even to areas with the same biome, if one biome is "played-out" (at minimum spawn rates) and the other is virgin wilderness.
There could also be knowledge allowing you to sense how harvested an area is (and what the current spawn rates are).All of that would make the world feel more alive, and would promote less repetitive/boring gameplay.
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I'm not going to comment on the feasibility/desirability of the OP - y'all are doing a great job discussing that and the various strategies are fascinating.
What I want to inject into the conversation is my desire for a way to learn about mobs w/o killing them. I don't have a problem w killing a deer for meat, or even for a head to make a helmet out of - but killing a whole bunch of ANYTHING strictly for 'information' and leaving the piles of corpses unlooted bc I already have plenty of meat or hide feels horrible & wasteful.
If mob drops get tied to knowledge and only killing gets me knowledge, this may not be my game after all...
But I'm hopeful that this will be addressed by @Prometheus & the mighty devs in future iterations bc thinking up a world like Arboreus seems to intuitively mean they grok folks like me.Suggestions for (believable) ways to learn about things w/o killing mass quantities:
- observation
- interaction
- using looted materials in crafting
- 'lessons' from an experienced hunter/craftsperson
@Specter and the mods can move this to another thread if it seems like a completely separate conversation.
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Having resources be slightly based on knowledge sounds fantastic to me, particularly the more obscure things. Like how everyone can get basic materials but the better you are the easier it is to find/harvest higher level materials. Like how anyone can take an axe to a tree and get logs but an actual woodcutter can look at a try and find better typed
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I could certainly see anatomical knowledge (based on studying the creature dead) and behavioral knowledge (based on studying the creature alive) being very different things, providing different benefits.
Also, if the world ecosystem was robust enough that predators could hunt other animals independently of the players, you might be able to find carcasses to study (if you can scare away the predators).
Maybe all that could be part of taming.
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- Having to use another profession to help out, for example, book writing (or profession connected with writing documents, and map making or similar), you prepare materials (notebook to write your observations in, then having a specific tasks you have to perform with mob, while required to have those profession tools in your bag), this could get you knowledge on mobs.
How complex would that be to introduce, that's up to devs.
