@Gothix said in The End of most Sandbox PVP Games-The losing side.:

And... things can always turn around... people just need to be taught that they need to work for it, rather then expect this to be gifted to them by game mechanics.

That's a great straw man fallacy tactic there. No one here said, "We all need to be gifted everything".

I have been in both sides of the coin. I have been in a small (40-60 guild) in a small alliance (150ish-250ish member alliance) that was out numbered by guilds that were 300+ in alliances that were 900+ (Atlas). And I have also been in the huge dominating alliance that steam rolls everyone (Shadowbane).

And it comes down to the same thing. One side winning, and no one ever having the chance to compete after that. As fun as it is to easily dominate a pvp game, where no one else can even pose a challenge to you, it kills the pvp game.

When one guild is allowed to dominate in a sanbox pvp game there is no way to come back from it. Even if you decided, "I know I will recruit mass amounts of people" you will not have the infrastructure or resources to compete and in your aim to get them-You get destroyed.

This isn't me saying, "Give everyone everything". It's me saying, "There needs to be a trade off for that dominance otherwise the game dies".

Some people here suggested taxes. I like that.
I suggested buffs/debuffs. I would probably prefer the taxes if it can be done right.
I noticed Znirf said that if people lose a settlement they can keep it if they pay taxes. That is a solution I haven't seen at all.

And lets not get it twisted. You can take a gander at my signature. I am in a guild that has ambitions to be one of those large and powerful guilds. This isn't me saying, "I am in a small guild and want all the things!".

This is me saying, "This PVP game looks awesome and I don't want it to die in the same way that most sandbox PVP games die even if they are crazy fun".

@Gothix said in The End of most Sandbox PVP Games-The losing side.:

It comes down to this...

Life isn't fair... nor should the game be. The more "safeguards" are in place, the more dull game becomes.

This is a game, not real life. Your second bolded comment that you try to pass as a fact is an extremely subjective opinion. And wildly off topic since I am not asking for safeguards for protection but for consequences from growing widely too big.

Like I said no rules or limitation makes for a fun pvp at the start sure but then the game ends and dies. Which is no fun for anyone. I guess if the FracturedMMO Devs just want a game that will last for a little while and then close down it is a fantastic idea for that though. Whenever a sandbox PVP game comes out I normally play it until that point (Atlas being a prime example).

@Gothix said in The End of most Sandbox PVP Games-The losing side.:

The fun is in risk, in expectation that anything can happen, and in knowing that that changes depend solely on you. The freedom and the risk, without limitations. This is the game as I want to play it. This is why i stay away from theme park MMOs that limit you with various mechanics.

There is no risk if you play the, "Just recruit everyone and attack smaller guilds since it is easy to win them and they either get absorbed, or stop playing". Then as you continue it gets easier and easier. That isn't fun, engaging, or risky. In fact it is the opposite of risky. It's extremely safe. Risky would be if there were mechanics that made every decision come with consequences.

People here come with arguments "But what if i need to leave the game for some time...?" .... well that's your own problem man. If you leave, then deal with the consequences, that's life. You can't have everything, you need to make choices.

I don't see how that pertains to this situation at all but okay. Again, this is a game. Not life. I would say perhaps you should join the army but then you will find there are indeed extremely strict limitation in real life. Perhaps a life of burglary? You will find even stricter limitations and consequences there. I think the, "Real life" comment you keep brandishing is in no way in your favor. In real life there are limitations and rules all around us to keep things going, and for people who try to ignore them there are extreme real consequences.

If i wanted a game that protects me, that safeguards me when I need to leave, that balances things for me regardless of what I do or where I go... I would go play Farmville.

Are you suggesting there is a Farmville Open world pvp game? Or are you trying to make a false false equivalency to this by misrepresenting reality in hopes that people don't see through your comment?

And... Fractured is already taking care of you in that regard. If you are worried about everything, simply play as Beastmen on Arboreus, and you are safe, from invasions, if you leave for few days,... you can play in peace.

Please don't get it twisted. I am not worried about my well being, or my items, or in game character. As I have repeatedly pointed out by now, I am worried about the game dying once a losing side is determined (I have no plans to be on the losing side by the way).

What more do you want?

For the game to last longer than a year, and not die because one side wins and the game stagnates and dies.

that is rethorical question, I know what you want, for Syndesia and Tartaros to conver to Arboreus as well... this is what you want in every MMO that's being created

Another false equivalency argument here I see.

give us safety.... I want to play solo, make others not touch me.

What are you rambling about? Nothing here remotely said anything similar to that.

@Althalus said in Empty World:

another game that has similar art style to Fractured but feels different b/c of the grass/ foliage that seems to make the game feel more occupied

As much as I enjoy foliage like that in my single player games. Am I the only one that always turns it all the way down in PVP games for that performance boost?

I think it would be a nice addition but I would put that pretty low in the priority list.

For me it is PVP.

PVP shines best with non-linear gear progression. PVP also shines best in sandbox games. Though those two are my opinion but I think most would agree.

With the ability to siege cities pvp is going to be on the forefront already. I wonder if individual players will be able to siege individual claims. There will also be PVP between planets.

Though that is the answer for me. I am sure others will find fun in other places. Looks like the game has a great system in place for people who like trading/being a merchant.

Can we get a forum feature to allow us to see what devs/admin have posted recently? Or allow a search option for it.

Either one would be nice.

Skip to the bottom for a too long didn't read.

I love PVP games.

My favorite was ShadowBane (Open World PVP with city building, and sieges), and most recently Tale of Toast (Ignore the name the game was bloody open world PVP with full loot drops) and a slew of games in between.

What I notice most often sandbox games that allow open PVP is someone comes out ahead. And when the tides turn in their favor the tides are near impossible to stop. You see people jump ship into the winning sides factions/teams and it makes matters worse. You see people get frustrated and stop playing and it makes the tides even more lop sided. Then once the game is too lopsided the game starts to cannibalize itself population wise.

This was really bad on Bless Online on my server. I was in the Top Guild on my factions side on my server and we constantly farmed/xped in the best spots and if the other faction tried to farm/xp there we destroyed them. After our first 2/3 groups hit max level the other factions top group just started reaching the last xp/farming area we were still there farming on our down time and help the slower members get there and pushed the other faction further down.

We had a grand time but the tides were too much in our favor. When they released the next content patch which included a larger pvp area and instance based pvp we had no one to play with. We literally had to let people run around taking objectives so we could take them back lol. The other faction didn't have enough people level appropriate to start the pvp instances (We only got an hour to do it so bad game design as well imo)

Same thing happened in ShadowBane but much worse. In Shadowbane you could occupy mines you need for resources for crafting and could port to your cities which meant the people in charge dominated the map and resources and you either joined them, or got squashed by them.

Seen the same thing in Tales of Toast. When it launched lots of people were PVPing and it was a fun time. One side ended up destroying the other and pretty much everyone in the destroyed guild would stop playing. It got to the point where even though it was a open world PVP game I could farm by myself without a worry because I knew no one in my level range (That would attack me) existed in the game. The only people in my level range in that game were guildmates.

I know Crowfall (the successor to ShadowBane plans on solving the problem with having end conditions for their map. Ie. Own the capital for x amount of time, and offering alternate server rule sets going on at the same time so if you lose your city you can just to a different server to have fun until the reset).

TLDR; Games that allow open PVP tend to get dominated by one group/faction and tend to be what ruins PVP games. Is there a mechanic to mitigate this in this game?

Crowsfall way is a simple one but I feel it is not the way I want to see a game do it. Any suggestions?

I don't believe I saw this addressed yet.

We see it in all sandbox pvp games. The first one I remember is.
ShadowBane-Amazing game. But eventually 1-2 factions gobble up all the smaller ones and then eventually one faction takes the lead and the server/gameplay stagnates.

The most recent example. Atlas. Open world PVP Pirate game.

Started off extremely fun. But then the medium guilds took out the small guilds and then the large guilds took all the medium guilds. Then all the super/mega guilds took all the large guilds. And the game went from survival PVP pirate game that was fun to being surrounded by allies and having to travel/prep for hours if you want to PVP because everyone within an hour or so radius is an ally.

This is always the case in sandbox PVP games I play. I don't know if Fractured has a way to handle one side ending up dominating the server by just absorbing all other players/guilds.

I know Crowfall plans on finally beating this problem by reseting the game once a guild "wins". I don't feel like that is the way to do it though. There has to be a better way.

I recommend that each time a guild takes over an enemy city they either get a debuff per city they have taken, or their enemies get a buff per city that has been taken. This will do a few things. It stops one or two guilds from just dominating every single city/resource in the game. And more importantly it makes it so the best guilds don't just dominate low member guilds over and over before deciding to try and look at each other. It will make those elite guilds think, "We better attack our rivals before the debuff/buff stacks too high"

I brought up this topic a year ago but it is the Achilles hill of Sandbox PVP games. It is something if not looked at gives us an awesome PVP game that dies after a year or so as the game eats itself.

TL:DR PVP Sandbox Games tend to have one/two guilds who absorb/dominate the others and it ruins the game. How can we fix this?

One of my favorite parts of Atlas is the ability to have custom flags/ships. Nothing was more intimidating than seeing a fleet of ships with custom paint jobs, and flags. Though, it came with the drawback of giving anyone the ability to do this which is people doing crazy/dumb things with it.

I feel tabards, flags, carpets, etc would fit nicely in this world(s) and could be a way for FracturedMMO to make money. If I can pay a few dollars and have my guilds logo on my character via a tabard you know I will do it. If I can pay a few dollars and have my guild represented in our cities I will do it as well. If I could pay a few dollars to have something unique to me in my house 100% will do it. Multiple times.

It's the same as selling cosmetics in the cash shop but slightly better because it takes no work, time, or money from the devs.

I feel it would have to be behind a paywall to prevent people from abusing it, and/or maybe behind a level requirement. Though, I can't imagine many people will be willing to throw down money for something explicit just for it to be taken away lol. But still good to have safe guards against abuse.

Thoughts?

@Jetah said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Gibbx

progression can happen without dailies though. this is a sandbox game and progression should be getting resources, defending your town/city, PvPing the enemy and looting their goods! knowledge already exist and the developers said they didn't like farming, which is what dailies are.

i haven't played eve online recently but when i played the only dailies they had were reputation with mission npc's. but you could predo much of them and keep the items in the hanger and the npc would take it from there to complete it.

I've been without internet at my new apartment so i haven't been on as much and have been forgetting about it when I'm on my phone. so i guess happy vacation from me

Dailies does not have to equal farming, or grind though. It could be as simple as checking in with your local/closest town for a daily ration for being a citizen there (I believe cities have a food/resource requirement so a daily works there as well being it is something people will need to do regardless). Or for just logging in.

The goal of a daily isn't to force people to grind for hours but to get people to login daily. The best dailies are incorporated with normal game play (Why I think city maintenance is a good fit for it). But they could be as simple as logging in.

I planted a few clover plots but when it came time to harvest them nothing happened. The soil nutrition didn't change, and I wasn't able to harvest anything.

https://discord.gg/c27BrRshjr

I tried to place a chest inside my house and realized I cannot. It's just red. Unless outside then it is blue.

If I try to build a fireplace I get a message saying, "You must be inside a building you own to build this".

I took a screenshot to show the red chest and saw my neighbor's plot and remembered. His plot is currently broken. If you look at it, it is just the floor and walls which he has built. But the next stage never turned blue for him so he is stuck. Other then this though I have been having a blast!

@Farlander said in Death and what it entails:

So we don't have any dev info yet on this subject? We can all speculate and discuss the subject but I'd rather know where the jump off point is. I think up to this point I have only heard there will be damage upon death. I haven't seen anything about being knocked out causing damage. If it only happens at death and death is not often in PvE then this isn't a big deal. However, if we die often each session this could be a big deal if damage is high and you have to constantly repair/replace your gear.

I'll test this during the next Alpha test. I will say I died to teleport home a lot in the last alpha and played all day. And my gear didn't start needing to be replaced by the end of the 2nd day.

So if we currently lose durability on death or knockdown neither are in a position that really handicaps people's play time. The amount of times I died almost makes me feel like it could be tuned up on death. But it is at an okay spot.

My hope is that the game's economy works into this and people who enjoy farming can trade food for gear from other players/governors, and people who enjoy PVEing can trade regents for gear. People who enjoy crafting can trade gear for the other items. And people who enjoy PVPing can just loot it from people.

You got plenty of time to get a founder's pack If anyone else is interested in joining I recommend you jump in on Discord.

The guild often hits up random games while we wait for Fractured

@Jetah said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

@Whisper

no game should encourage daily log ins. playing the game should be optional, not a requirement.

daily quest:
child: mom i'm bored
Mom: go brush your teeth
child: still bored
Mom: clean your room

those are quest. you ask for something to do and it's given to you.

Daily content
you, brush your teeth, clean your room, do w/e part of dishes, mop, dust, etc.

You dont have to ask for those as it's just something you do.

Both examples given the content is optional and not required. Think someone hit it on the head earlier saying it is a psychological issue.

@Manaia said in Skills gained through different means:

Getting non-combat skills would be fun.
I wouldn't expect any combat skills to be gotten by gathering/processing/profession stuff, but definitely should be rewarded for doing more of it. Right now they exist as knowledge but it's a one-shot thing - it's either you have it or you don't, there's no knowledge grind for these things, just a checklist if you have it or not.

I like this idea. Would add a whole new dynamic to being a crafter/gather focused player. I feel like gathering regents used for poisoning could offer poison based skills/buffs (Maybe just increasing their usage duration or amount created when crafting poisons), etc.

Not sure if we are passed the point where they could add something like this but it is a great idea.

@Manaia said in What kind of game do you hope Fractured will be?:

@Tuoni I did think about having a third option for them being equal. I'm not sure if I didn't specify the question good enough or if people are reading too quickly (not a jab) and not fully comprehending it. The game obviously is going to be both an RPG and sandbox, but if it was a slider, which point would they gravitate to more. That's eventually why I ended up with having only the two options. Having an "equal" option would basically be the same as "I don't care" in my mind.

I think I don't care would be a 4th option. Leaning toward either choice is a choice. Wanting there to be a mixture is a choice as well. Not caring would be a different choice entirely.

Someone who wants a mixture wants a mixture. If the table started tilting too much to one side where the other disappears then they would get upset because they care very much. As someone who picked the first choice I would have preferred a mix of both option because I would not want to see the sandbox genre removed from the game by any means.

@Gothix said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

Ah I would also like to connect to that example with leather.

Sure tanning leather can have 24h timer, until it's complete. But... you can tan 1 leather, 2 leathers, 15 leathers in paralel.

So if you didn't tan 2 leathers today, you can tan extra 2 tomorrow, and you didn't miss a thing.

If you however miss doing "daily quest" today, you can't simply do the double job tomorrow, you missed that reward forever.

Your example can illustrate my point I believe. Sure you can decide to just tan 1 leather. Or 15. There are plenty of dailies that allow you to do it once or multiple times a day in that regard as well.

But you are limited on how many leathers you can tan. For example. Say I had 15 tanning tubs. If I missed a day I can't "Just do double the job tomorrow". Not unless I had room for 15 more tanning tubs and wanted to take the time to create them. Which could take awhile since Tree's have a long timer as well. If I missed two days I couldn't just do triple the leather. At that point I would need 45 tanning tubs and my whole claim would have to basically be just tanning tubs.

Missing a day on a event that is daily is the same as missing the reward on a daily quest. In both situations you don't put in the time and you don't get the reward. In regards to daily quest the limit is sometimes imposed on you (WoW use to have a daily quest limit you could do) or in the case of a daily event it is based on how many tanning tubs you are willing to build/keep in your territory. There is a hard cap to this number.

@Gothix said in Your favorite Dailies, or what you would like to see them as.:

If we are arguing semantics and also bringing RL in...

Then "daily" just means something that you do every day, and it in no way has any cool down tied to that activity.

You eat daily, but there is no cool down, so you can eat as much as often as you want (that not being healthy is another issue).

---

If one simply wants to convert a world to be used in a field (like gaming) than you have to consider what that word means for the "most" individuals in this field (in this case players).

"Daily" imho. for most players means a quest that you do 1 time per day, that has cool down of 24 hours.

I don't think I have ever eaten and been told I have to wait 24 hours for the next day to eat. Eating could be an hourly endeavor. Or activity you do every minute.

If a Tree has a 24 hour timer-Daily.
If leather has a 24 hour timer-Daily.
If farming has a 24 hour timer-Daily.

Activities that you simply do every day in game, "most" players do not call dailies. When you hear daily, in your mind is something else.

I agree with you on this when it comes to leveling. But once it comes to Endgame where you played all the content you want and have a daily routine you still must do those things would still count as daily to me (This is subjective, and you may have a different opinion but neither of us can really be right or wrong on this).

For example since we are using real life. I have a daily jog/run I do. Could I run all day, or several times a day? Yes. But do I? No. I run once. Daily.