Firendly fire?
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All known about FF atm:
If you flag yourself as Good, you are not allowed to perform hostile actions against any other Good or Neutral player. There are several ways this restriction is applied – some common cases being:
You can’t use basic attacks and targeted spells against Good or Neutral players.
Your AOE abilities cause no damage or negative side effects to Good or Neutral players.On the contrary, all the hostile actions listed above are permitted against Evil players – and even encouraged by Karma gains!
If you flag yourself as Neutral, you can perform hostile actions against any other player. This includes attacking, stealing, and murdering.
Hurting a Good or Neutral player doesn’t turn your Alignment to Evil, but flags you as Aggressive – a condition that gets you treated as Evil in many ways. For instance, Good players become able to hurt you, while other Neutral players become able to do so as well without consequences.
The Aggressive flag lasts for a few minutes only, but some particularly despicable actions like stealing or executing a player may add additional conditions (such the aforementioned Thief and Murderer flags) that last for a much longer time.
While Evil, you’re free to perform hostile actions against any other player – just like when you’re Neutral. However, other players can also do so against you, without consequences – such as being flagged as Thief or Murderer or losing Karma. In fact, they will gain Karma by getting the world rid of you!
So the above seems pretty clear. What is missing is guildmates and team/raid when playing with neutral and evil players, right?
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@dybuk said in Firendly fire?:
I'm afraid that Friendly Fire would turn a lot of AOE attacks obsolete or even dangerous.
That would mean that I have this great skill, that could hit multiple enemies, but cannot use it at all cause somebody is always on the front line doing melee.That’s what coordinating does. You get a friend to call out a CC so the melee start to leave. Then the CC hits and you use your AoE.
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@jetah said in Firendly fire?:
That’s what coordinating does.
Yes, but coordinating works in a party. Imagne trying to coordinate different groups of lets say 100 people during Demon invasion.
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Problem with too much actual "friendly fire" is AoE mechanics. The average gamer who have no clue wtf they're talking about thinks this just adds nice level of complexity to the game which it doesn't really in an ARPG. This company already looks like a conglomeration of too many ideas. Add an actual FF and this game might as well discourage anything more than duo/solo play or just throw those crappy large AoE spells out the window.
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@chrightt Would it be such a bad thing for AoE to be situational? Especially in a game where it's very easy to switch out builds?
Friendly fire can even the playing field between large uncoordinated groups and small coordinated groups. Without sufficient deterrents, the game will break down into zerg vs zerg which is just boring imo.
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@chrightt are you sure some evil demons won't just throw AoE spells into fighting groups just for fun?
Evil players risk nothing killing their 'friends'. On the other hand neutral players will lose karma hitting neutral and good players so this will surely stop them.
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@dybuk said in Firendly fire?:
@jetah said in Firendly fire?:
That’s what coordinating does.
Yes, but coordinating works in a party. Imagne trying to coordinate different groups of lets say 100 people during Demon invasion.
either you use discord or other voice program so that you can co-op or you sacrifice a few melee for the greater good!
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@dybuk said in Firendly fire?:
Yes, but coordinating works in a party. Imagne trying to coordinate different groups of lets say 100 people during Demon invasion.
Assuming you're talking about a coordinated group vs demons, you'd have to set up a chain of command like what Eve players do for large scale fights.
@tulukaruk said in Firendly fire?:
On the other hand neutral players will lose karma hitting neutral and good players so this will surely stop them.
I think this might be one of the bigger issues with having friendly fire. You'd need a system to recognize large scale fights so that neutral players aren't immediately flagged as murderers for misclicking. And also a way to prevent people from getting you flagged by intentionally walking into your AoEs.
@jetah said in Firendly fire?:
you sacrifice a few melee for the greater good
I can see team compositions made to mitigate friendly fire. For example hellfire demons equipped with fire resistant armor backed up by mages using fire nukes. Or something like a paladin build that can jump into a group of enemies, pull them all together, then shield himself from all the arrows raining down on that spot from his allies.
Friendly fire can open up interesting possibilities for team builds.
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@target
I'd prefer no safety measures againt FF. Fractured is a sandbox, outside of a tutorial it shouldn't hold your hand and protect you from others (exploits aside).
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Idk... the devs should just go with whatever their original image is on this one. It seems like a niche idea that would severely affect balance between the races that are already rather restricted in alignment and by the karma system. Exaggerating that even more by making them able to hurt their teammates but not the other side will just... make being “good” alignment OP in battle even though they aren’t combat oriented like the “evil” alignment.
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Fire Bad!
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@jetah said in Firendly fire?:
I'd prefer no safety measures again FF. Fractured is a sandbox, outside of a tutorial it shouldn't hold your hand and protect you from others (exploits aside).
I agree to an extent. I'd like to see as little restrictions on friendly fire as possible, but with the currently known rules, neutral players have the harshest friendly fire punishment (24 hours of being flagged). This would be a huge deterrent for participating in large scale fights as a neutral player and might actually lead to less overall pvp participation on Syndesia. Imagine no big resistance to demon invasions because humans don't want to risk getting flagged; pretty boring if you're the demons.
To foster a healthy pvp environment with friendly fire on Syndesia, there would need to be a way to mitigate the consequences of friendly fire in some situations without turning Syndesia into another Tartaros.
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As much as I like friendly fire, I am afraid it won't work very well in Fractured. Why? Because abilities interact with the environment. It turns single target abilities into AOE abilities as we saw in the Arboreus video. So, even if you only put single-target abilities on your action bar, everything will be burning, electrified, poisoned, frozen, etc seconds into the fight.
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@target said in Firendly fire?:
@chrightt Would it be such a bad thing for AoE to be situational? Especially in a game where it's very easy to switch out builds?
Friendly fire can even the playing field between large uncoordinated groups and small coordinated groups. Without sufficient deterrents, the game will break down into zerg vs zerg which is just boring imo.
No amount of group coordination will solve the zerg situation. If one side just zergs the other with single target spells (in this case killing healer is much easier when focused) will yield the same result. By the way, another problem with friendly fire is that it makes AoE heal way OP (because of the sheer amount of value) unless you make it weak (in which case it is weak af without a zerg) or heals the enemy (might as well not play this retarded game then cause you just straight up charge healer with nice benefit if they ever cast any form of aoe heal). Friendly fire works more for games like super smash where on a competitive level it is usually 1v1 or 2v2. Since screens only accommodate so much space and it is not exactly player friendly to cast spells exactly the way you want them to, friendly fire is generally not a very bright idea. Perhaps playing a game in VR like the anime SAO would be a better idea for friendly fire due to the fact that your mind can control exactly how you want spells to work. If you ever actually tried designing a game you will see friendly fire brings much more limitations than benefits (there is a reason why you don't see a lot of friendly fire in mmorpgs (at least in ARPG form).
You must understand that sometimes things don't exist for a reason, not because people never tried them. In this case, it'll be really hard to even get past developmental stage, and if it passes their QA (assuming they have one) Fractured will be a very unfriendly MMO for medium-large sized groups.
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@chrightt if i'm not wrong tanks can block single target attacks so they can protect healers. Lowering AoE effectiveness by adding FF is an interesting way and if it works it will be great. The zerg situation you're mentioning is much worse if said zerg can spam AoE attacks.
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@vengu said in Firendly fire?:
As much as I like friendly fire, I am afraid it won't work very well in Fractured. Why? Because abilities interact with the environment. It turns single target abilities into AOE abilities as we saw in the Arboreus video. So, even if you only put single-target abilities on your action bar, everything will be burning, electrified, poisoned, frozen, etc seconds into the fight.
Good point, I hadn't considered environmental effects, but wouldn't friendly fire for environmental effects actually simplify things? If you're in a situation where there are all these effects around you, how do you differentiate which effects were caused by enemies? It would be less complex for players to adopt of the mindset of "don't stand in the fire" than for a system to be developed to make those distinctions (which might increase visual clutter).
@chrightt said in Firendly fire?:
No amount of group coordination will solve the zerg situation. If one side just zergs the other with single target spells (in this case killing healer is much easier when focused) will yield the same result.
That depends on the skills that are added to the game. Guild Wars 1, for example, had skills that countered focus fire. If a zerg focus fires and gets countered, while the coordinated group is unleashing AoEs into them, that could turn a battle.
By the way, another problem with friendly fire is that it makes AoE heal way OP (because of the sheer amount of value)
If everyone is free to spam AoE damage everywhere, that also gives a lot of value to AoE heals.
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Tbh, having FF turned off between guildies or raid members would be easiest and best. We get enough tactical gameplay compared to almost all mmorpgs because of the body collision between players.
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@benseine not sure about guild but party and raid should be FF free for sure. With guild it makes it too easy to circumvent FF so it's probably not a good idea.
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@chrightt said in Firendly fire?:
No amount of group coordination will solve the zerg situation. If one side just zergs the other with single target spells
and hit each other because most of them are skillshots and/or have splash damage
another problem with friendly fire is that it makes AoE heal way OP (because of the sheer amount of value) unless you make it weak
I don't see how this has any effect on heals? They won't be any more or less powerful at all; they'll just be even more desirable because more damage is being taken, a completely moot point given every MMO party requires a healer anyway.
Since screens only accommodate so much space and it is not exactly player friendly to cast spells exactly the way you want them to, friendly fire is generally not a very bright idea.
I think maybe you should wait for the game to be playable before making wild presumptions about how much stuff is on the screen and how easy the interface is.
Perhaps playing a game in VR like the anime SAO would be a better idea for friendly fire due to the fact that your mind can control exactly how you want spells to work.
What the hell is this Wonderland tangent lmfao
If you ever actually tried designing a game you will see friendly fire brings much more limitations than benefits (there is a reason why you don't see a lot of friendly fire in mmorpgs (at least in ARPG form).
Yes, the reason is that it requires you to actually think and make a good game or at least a different once. Most MMORPGs are not designed to actually make games, they are designed to get as much money from foolish players as quickly and cheaply as possible. 90% of them are just World of Warcraft reskins and asset flips. They're not real games to begin with and they certainly won't be rebuilding the industry with novel new ideas like global friendly fire.
You must understand that sometimes things don't exist for a reason, not because people never tried them.
It's more that somebody half-heartedly tried it once, intentionally made it shitty, and then everybody got scared of putting any thought or effort into refining the concept and treated it like the plague for the rest of their lives so they could keep buying the same games over and over and spending fortunes on pretend clothes.
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Perhaps during an invasion time period, FF is activated for beast men as well.
Explanation: due to panic caused by imminent danger (demon invasion) beast men loose part of focus, and now can hit non guildies / non party members with FF as well.
This could add balance so that during invasion time all factions can suffer from FF.
