VIP system : What do you think ?
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@kellewic AS long as the player who has money and only 2 hours doesnt lvl upto cap at the same amount of days/months as the player who put in 6 hours and no money! I think thats what most people are worried about! the player who players 2 hours and spends money should STILL end up taking longer to level than the player who spends 6 hours a day, but level faster than a player who spends only 2 hours a day and spends no money! the most fair thing to would be: player who spends 6 hours a day hits cap in 1 month; player who spends 2 hours a day and money hits cap in month and a half; and a player who spends 2 hours a day and spends no money hits level cap in 2 months! as for the person who has both time and money as long as they arent hitting cap in 1 day or anything insane like that, because every game has the big spenders with a lot of time and you cant really do anything about them all you can do try to curb as much as possible the power imbalance while levelling! some people think just because someone is levelling faster than you that means the game is P2W and I dont think thats necessarily true! I think if the player who pays and who doesnt pay can go head to head and be EQUAL in all aspects at end game then its not really pay2win...
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@althalus said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@kellewic AS long as the player who has money and only 2 hours doesnt lvl upto cap at the same amount of days/months as the player who put in 6 hours and no money! I think thats what most people are worried about! the player who players 2 hours and spends money should STILL end up taking longer to level than the player who spends 6 hours a day, but level faster than a player who spends only 2 hours a day and spends no money! the most fair thing to would be: player who spends 6 hours a day hits cap in 1 month; player who spends 2 hours a day and money hits cap in month and a half; and a player who spends 2 hours a day and spends no money hits level cap in 2 months! as for the person who has both time and money as long as they arent hitting cap in 1 day or anything insane like that, because every game has the big spenders with a lot of time and you cant really do anything about them all you can do try to curb as much as possible the power imbalance while levelling! some people think just because someone is levelling faster than you that means the game is P2W and I dont think thats necessarily true! I think if the player who pays and who doesnt pay can go head to head and be EQUAL in all aspects at end game then its not really pay2win...
Yeah, agree. If the time saving items shave even 25% of time, not much of a problem in my opinion. That gives 15 more minutes an hour - or for a dedicated, 8 hour a day player, about a week every month.
I've seen other VIP systems that give something like a scroll, potion, or whatever at X per cycle and they last for a few hours to give boosts. Might be a good middle ground over a permanent boost.
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@finland That they could, and it would make me a tad happier. However, then it would devalue those KS tiers a bit (as they currently have carpenter and the VIP stuff), and they'd have to supplement them with something else worthwhile to make them worth the price.
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Although we know the theory of the learning/knowledge system, it'll probly take until alpha to really get the "feel" of it, and its impact on gameplay progression. I think that only then will we be able to see if its "fair or not".
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@phaethonas
we know subs use to work. now it's a tacked on "optional" item that usually doesn't offer much unless it's a paywall, see swtor. subs were abandoned because people wouldn't pay the monthly fee (i'd venture a guess those that paid the sub became adults with jobs and family, whose children start to play game). publishers found out they could have a higher revenue with a cash shop, see LoL. if subs worked then every game would be sub only.@Finland
wow isn't a hybrid. they offer a trial where any character can level to 20, or you pay to access the remaining parts of the game. it's still a required subscription. Eve also fits this.@Vengu @Prometheus
to me the knowledge system should always be equal for everyone, same with the learning slots, the sub shouldn't affect the characters. what happens when the average population has all 400 skills? will they drop their sub because the knowledge point gain and learning was 90% of the perk? let's say it takes 2 years for the average player to get all 400 skills, what happens to the sub? the cash shop discount and cumulative bonuses had better be very good at that point. what if it take 6 months to gain all 400 skills? to me it's pretty short sighted to give a boost to knowledge and learning slots.@kellewic
you know that the 6h player will have sub because it's beneficial for them. if i played 2h a day i wouldn't have a sub because it's 60h a month for that boost of 10$. that 6h daily has 180h of boost per month which is a better deal for 10$.@Luccheno
by the time that happens the kickstarter will be over and obligations will have to be made. if majority of the population see's value in the immortal tier because of the lifetime VIP then major changes would have to happen to keep that value or DS issues refunds which won't help them financially.
I've been enjoying Overwatch this past year because it's b2p without a sub. i feel i can play other games and enjoy my time because there isn't an obligation to 'get my money's worth because of the sub'.
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Generally speaking VIP systems are a big no-no, what's starting off as 'minor convenience' can turn into a 'major convenience' before people even realize it, it's just one slippery slope. Keep cash-shops aesthetic-only, PoE and GW2 do it very successfully so there's no question it can be done right.
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@jetah In wow you can buy a token with golds
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@finland
you can't make 450k gold with a level 20 character. you need to have had lots of gold to play the ah or run raids to get new items.
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@phaethonas said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
With enough time played a player without VIP will always be behind an active VIP player.
Um, no, they won't. The non-boosted player will begin catching up once the boosted player hits the power ceiling (which is very low in Fractured) and then they will end up equal.
Here's a chart to help you visualize this:
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@fibs said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@phaethonas said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
With enough time played a player without VIP will always be behind an active VIP player.
Um, no, they won't. The non-boosted player will begin catching up once the boosted player hits the power ceiling (which is very low in Fractured) and then they will end up equal.
Here's a chart to help you visualize this:
First of all, you can't make a graph like that, because we don't know yet how faster the knowledge points are being gained with the VIP. As a matter of fact, we don't even know how fast knowledge points are being accumulated, under "normal" circumstances.
So, you making this graph is pure nonsense and misinformation. You just want to "impress" people with graphs, basically.
Furthermore, you lack knowledge of the knowledge system (pun unintended).
For example; Although the Talent points cap to 50, the Knowledge points do not and there is no 1:1 association between them.
Whereas in classic MMORPGs you gain a new Talent Point once in a while when leveling up, in Fractured you’re free to choose when to obtain one by spending a fixed amount of your Knowledge Points.
So, each talent point may require 10 knowledge points, or some talent points may require 2 knowledge points, others 4 and some others 10.
Furthermore, the knowledge points are being used for another reason as well.
So you finally have your ability Ready To Study. To start the learning process, all you need are:
A sufficient amount of Knowledge Points. A blank tome of the appropriate School of Magic or Fighting.So, to sum things up. Knowledge points are being used for; a) to be converted into talent points. Then these talent points are consumed and used in the talent tree. b) knowledge points are used at the learning procedure with which you unlock new abilities, as well.
Even if we assume that your graph was correct, it isn't, your graph takes into consideration only a) and not b).
So, do tell me again that the VIP will not be pay2win.
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Again guys, you discuss about the VIP consequences of Fractured, before you got known how much it will be.
Also you don't know, if this gain is in any kind relevant for "winning" Fractured.
I still suggest just to discuss about likes and dislikes and wait for discussing the special Fractured System when @Prometheus gave us an answer about it.
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@jetah said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@phaethonas
we know subs use to work. now it's a tacked on "optional" item that usually doesn't offer much unless it's a paywall, see swtor. subs were abandoned because people wouldn't pay the monthly fee (i'd venture a guess those that paid the sub became adults with jobs and family, whose children start to play game). publishers found out they could have a higher revenue with a cash shop, see LoL. if subs worked then every game would be sub only.Subscription games work. Period. If devs that want/ed to milk their players have abandonded the model, this has nothing to do with the fact that is a working model. Unlike the f2p model. There were a ton of good subscription games, there is only one f2p game that may be considered good; PoE.
Your explanation that people don't like sub games anymore is also false. Not only the most successful MMO (WoW) is sub2play, not only sub2play is making a come back (Camelot Unchained, Dual Universe, Ashes of Creation), which means that the people want that payment model, but more importantly the change took place not because the players wanted "free" games, but rather because f2p monetized games generate more revenue.
Yes, if you measure the "success" of a game by how much money it is making, then f2p is the best model. As a rule though, the f2p model creates circumstances that will make a game awful. E.g. most likely it will be pay2win.
Alternative business models (to pure sub2play and buy2play) have been tried and have failed miserably at creating a good game. The dev company and the publisher may be making a ton of money, but their game isn't good. SWTOR and BDO are two such examples.
Literally, the only exception is PoE and that (PoE being "good") is debatable for a number of reasons. I am not talking about pay2win here. PoE is not pay2win. But a good game? That is debatable.
GW2, the only other exception of a successful cosmetic cash shop, is buy2play and it was sub2play.
So, pure sub2play and pure buy2play are the only payment models that have really worked. Everything else has failed miserably.
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Lets compare this discussion in the thread with PoE, good point @Phaethonas. This system is really good and even there is p2w if we compare it with the statements here, because to have more bags and the special bags gives you a huge amount of possibilities to collect much ingame currency. But you can play the game in its whole and can have same success than everybody without spending money.
For a company who create games and want to let them running, they need a solid income from the possibilities the bussiness gives them. The initial payment won't run the game forever. So you need to get some goodies you can get from paying regulary a VIP. Why you should else buy it?
For them it is a solid base where they can count with and with it they can create for YOU the amazing gaming fun.
It's still up to them, what they want to give their loyal consumers. And Yes, the gaming business is not about just being nice to others and just do it for fun... it is all about being able to care for a game, but get some food between the theets to.Edit:
And never forget, the game will be playable in it's whole without paying anything in the cashshop or in an optional Sub. Oh and to be honest, to give time rescue with a payed VIP will not be really a pay to win, just you spare a bit time.
And i think, thats just fair for a payed service, as long it is well balanced.
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@phaethonas said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
GW2, the only other exception of a successful cosmetic cash shop, is buy2play and it was sub2play.
GW2 never had a subscription, not even an optional one. It was b2p and now it's f2p with b2p expansions.
Warframe is another example of free to play done right, but it doesn't just sell cosmetics (and doesn't necessarily sell straight power), but it's an unusually structured pure coop game and is probably the only game that will work with its model.
One of the things Warframe and PoE have in common is that they have they have limited time premium packs. Warframe's packs have prime gear, exclusive cosmetics, boosters, and premium currency. PoE's packs have exclusive cosmetics, forum titles, merch, and premium currency. These packs are a huge part of their business models. DS might be able to incorporate a similar system.
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First of all, PoE does not have a player driven economy. That is important about the whole thing about the bags and such.
Secondly, if a company wants "steady income" they can go with pure sub2play. Easy, honest, it works and in the long term it costs less. Which is a good thing for the player and may be a bad thing for the dev company if they want to make a cash grab.
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Thats true, it can work very well with a generel sub.
But @Phaethonas it is not true, that PoE has no player driven economy.
There is all about the player buying and selling: http://poe.trade/
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First of all, you can't make a graph like that, because we don't know yet how faster the knowledge points are being gained with the VIP. As a matter of fact, we don't even know how fast knowledge points are being accumulated, under "normal" circumstances.
(nor do either of those things matter)
So, you making this graph is pure nonsense and misinformation. You just want to "impress" people with graphs, basically.
You're talking out of your ass (and have been for some time.)
[blah blah blah knowledge system]
Nothing about my point has changed with any of this information. Stop filling.
So, do tell me again that the VIP will not be pay2win.
I've been saying that constantly, you just won't listen and keep making excuses to pretend that it is because of your hate-boner for cash shops.
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@phaethonas said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@jetah said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@phaethonas
we know subs use to work. now it's a tacked on "optional" item that usually doesn't offer much unless it's a paywall, see swtor. subs were abandoned because people wouldn't pay the monthly fee (i'd venture a guess those that paid the sub became adults with jobs and family, whose children start to play game). publishers found out they could have a higher revenue with a cash shop, see LoL. if subs worked then every game would be sub only.Subscription games work. Period. If devs that want/ed to milk their players have abandonded the model, this has nothing to do with the fact that is a working model. Unlike the f2p model. There were a ton of good subscription games, there is only one f2p game that may be considered good; PoE.
Your explanation that people don't like sub games anymore is also false. Not only the most successful MMO (WoW) is sub2play, not only sub2play is making a come back (Camelot Unchained, Dual Universe, Ashes of Creation), which means that the people want that payment model, but more importantly the change took place not because the players wanted "free" games, but rather because f2p monetized games generate more revenue.
are those games out yet? can i download camelot unchained, dual universe or ashes right now and pay a sub to play them? or are these games still in development?
i remember swtor, wildstar, eso and others that started as a mandatory sub, yet look where they are. so clearly it isn't working. we look to the past to predict the future. now of those 3 you mentioned, I can see CU being the one that survives and IF it does then it'll the second MMO in 5 years that has debuted as a sub and maintained it.Yes, if you measure the "success" of a game by how much money it is making, then f2p is the best model. As a rule though, the f2p model creates circumstances that will make a game awful. E.g. most likely it will be pay2win.
Alternative business models (to pure sub2play and buy2play) have been tried and have failed miserably at creating a good game. The dev company and the publisher may be making a ton of money, but their game isn't good. SWTOR and BDO are two such examples.
Literally, the only exception is PoE and that (PoE being "good") is debatable for a number of reasons. I am not talking about pay2win here. PoE is not pay2win. But a good game? That is debatable.
GW2, the only other exception of a successful cosmetic cash shop, is buy2play and it was sub2play.
So, pure sub2play and pure buy2play are the only payment models that have really worked. Everything else has failed miserably.
creating a p2w model is up to the developers or publishers. we can look at EA and SWBFII for the bad model. we can also look at PoE as a good model that isn't p2w. so we have both extreme sides.
@Target i've been mentioning PoE and forgot about Warframe.
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I think that this being OP (or not) mostly depends on how devs plan to implement standard knowledge gain rate in game, and how powerful VIP boost will be.
Basically, without any details on this we can't really say anything now.
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If average time that player will need to learn all 400 abilities (without VIP) will be 2 years, and VIP boost makes player able to do it in 6 months, then yes it would be OP.
If boost is only a mild one and VIP player (given the same play time) will averagely learn all abilities only like 10-20% faster then non VIP player, then it's not OP.
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We don't know what will average time to learn all abilities be, and we don't know how big the boost will be, so we can't really discuss this at all now besides maybe agreeing that VIP might be ok, if knowledge point gain boost is only a mild one.
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@frequencyzero gw2 also has option to buy ingame gold with RL currence...
