VIP system : What do you think ?
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@finland said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@zwiterion as I said many times:
The VIP sub could be fair if they remove those 2 things:
- additional Learning Slots
- increased Knowledge Point gains
OK people, nothing to see here! Please disperse quietly. It is just that Finland and I share for the first time an opinion. And that speaks volumes, doesn't it @Prometheus?
That said, personally, I wouldn't be against removing the VIP altogether, or ditch the b2p payment model and go full pay2play (subscription). After all, I am on the record saying that sub games are better than b2p games.
The point is, either way, to provide equal footing.
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@benseine Yes, but Prometheus didn't give numbers.
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@zwiterion said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
What we know : VIP membership includes bonuses such as additional Learning Slots, increased Knowledge Point gains, discounts on Store items and unique cosmetic rewards for accumulated VIP time. It's only time savers and cosmetic stuff - we're not selling power there!
Now some people think its p2w other dont.
It is not a matter of perspective. It is a matter of reality. Either something gives an advantage (in which case it is pay2win) or it does not.
The principal concern is probably the additional learning slot and the increased knowledge point gain. Depending on how it's done and how much of a boost it give it could either be a big advantage early game or just a slight time booster. I think that we should remember that in the end with enough time played a player without vip can still acquire the same lvl of power than a vip player.
With enough time played a player without VIP will always be behind an active VIP player. In order for the non-VIP player to catch up, you need the VIP player to be inactive, or if you want to be 100% accurate, the ratio "VIP's activity/non-VIP activity" to be a very small number, maybe even <1.
If the Vip system remain the same, a suggestion a could make to make it less pay to win would be to enable player to buy directly form the shop (not a trade with a player) the vip status with in-game currency. That way someone who want to go the easy way could use real money to buy it and a player who want the status and play a lot the game could still be vip without using real money.
What do you think about that ?
As far as I know this has never happened before. When sub tokens are offered to players for in-game currency, this is being done within player trading. In that case of course the system becomes more pay2win, if the game has a player driven economy, like Fractured has. Now, if something like what you describe does happen, it will "dilute" the pay2win potential of the VIP membership.
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@kralith said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
I don't see, where @Prometheus was decribing, how much an additional Learning Slot and more Knowledge gains will influence the game and the time you will save.
Maybe it is just a small plus, more like "You can save 5 minutes per day".
As long he not explained us, we can't say if its good or not or if it scratches on a p2w or not.For me such small additions are okay, as long they not really count for the game.
We got in Salem Shopitems, per example a better baking table or a better planting pot.
In the case of Baking table, it had just some slots more than the ingame one, we talk about a difference between 8 and 12 slots for dough. It sounds much, buuut if you really had a need for producing dough, you was counting more in hundreds instead of tens. So one Table with 4 slots more did not count in the whole.
Same with Planting pot, they reduced the time for growing in a half, sounds much.... buuut to create a really effective output you needed hundreds of Planting pots. One shop planting pot not really counted at all.So it is always up to the Devs, to balance the small additions you will get by a VIP, so that they don't have a huge advantage and never an advantage thats count as p2w.
A 50% increase/decrease is huge!
And sure, if you can buy only one "Table"/"Pot" from the cash shop, then the increase/decrease may (probably will) be mitigated by the fact that in order to have a meaningful output you need 10 "Tables"/"Pots". So, I will have 10x8 = 80 table slots and you will have 9x8+12= 84 table slots, which means that you have a 108.75% output aka +8.75%.
The problem though is that no-one stops you from buying more than 1 table/pot. In which case, your output will be solely dependent at your wallet. If the game has a player driven economy, then that means, pay2win.
The VIP membership though, won't work like the "Tables"/"Pots" . The "Table"/"Pots" are having a parallel effect, whereas the VIP will have a serial effect (see serial vs parallel). As such, if the output potential of one VIP membership is "5 minutes per day" then the pay2win potential is there, but is not much. Buying more VIPs will grant you more months of it (will be added serially) and will not give you 5 more minutes (which would be a parallel effect).
That though would defeat the purpose, don't you think?
Sure, I have voted for the fourth option (Without learning slot and knowledge pts gain) but let's be sincere shall we? The VIP needs to be enticing, if it isn't, it won't be bought. If it won't be bought, then the devs won't be making money they were hoping that they would, which will bring the game to a financial problem. This is why it is better to either; a) ditch VIP altogether or b) ditch the buy2play business model and convert to pure sub2play.
Anything else, will be more or less pay2win, will be less or more enticing, and this and that, and maybe, and.....
Keep things simple, people. Keep things simple.
The best solutions are; a) sub2play, b) buy2play with additional expansions being buy2play as well. Additionally, have the cosmetic cash shop if you must. Don't try complex things which you will try to balance in multiple ways.
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Eve is a sub game, they offer a demo. nothing more, nothing less. Fractured is a b2p game with sketchy VIP that will become mandatory because of the boost that could be perceived as p2w.
@phaethonas said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
The best solutions are; a) sub2play, b) buy2play with additional expansions being buy2play as well. Additionally, have the cosmetic cash shop if you must. Don't try complex things which you will try to balance in multiple ways.
path of exile is free to play, doesn't have vip and still does great with their cash shop. they offer supporter packs that include portrait, various armor/weapon skins, portal skins and store currency. the higher packs provide all previous tier packs (similar to kickstarter) and additional goods like hoodies, t-shirts, maps, skill tree poster, etc. if you own any of the physical you get a store credit. this has been working great for GGG (developers of Path of Exile) for 5 years.
what I like about PoE's supporter packs is it doesn't affect gameplay at all! This is what i'd like for Fractured.
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I will have to say that one thing that someone suggested about having special things that are only able to be purchased in the shop or having accumulated time feels good. I think a big thing we all don't want is it to give a bonus to the player's character but overall just a bonus to the experience of playing the game. If it doesn't help the character in terms of giving them some kind of advantage, then there must be some way to make the player (read: Purchaser) feel like it is worth the money. Otherwise the VIP system just kinda goes out the window as no one will purchase it.
The VIP system has to have some kind of worthwhile aspect to it otherwise it won't be purchased by anyone and that will A) not bring any money in and B) not even be worth developing or having the game revolve around it.
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I've never liked VIP systems. Too pay to win, and always too expensive.
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@jetah said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
@phaethonas said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
The best solutions are; a) sub2play, b) buy2play with additional expansions being buy2play as well. Additionally, have the cosmetic cash shop if you must. Don't try complex things which you will try to balance in multiple ways.
path of exile is free to play, doesn't have vip and still does great with their cash shop. they offer supporter packs that include portrait, various armor/weapon skins, portal skins and store currency. the higher packs provide all previous tier packs (similar to kickstarter) and additional goods like hoodies, t-shirts, maps, skill tree poster, etc. if you own any of the physical you get a store credit. this has been working great for GGG (developers of Path of Exile) for 5 years.
what I like about PoE's supporter packs is it doesn't affect gameplay at all! This is what i'd like for Fractured.
I tried PoE I didn't like it, because of the whole mouse control thing, an issue I may have to deal with Fractured as well. Maybe all that takes is some getting used to it, who knows.
In any case, I am not an expert at PoE, but from the little I can gather I'd say that their cash shop isn't p2w and I haven't seen anyone claiming otherwise. That doesn't mean though that every game's cosmetic cash shop will be as successful as PoE's. First of all PoE's cash shop apparently is very successful because it can keep the game afloat despite the game having no other revenue! Secondly, as I have said before, it is a little dangerous to have one content generating income (e.g. cosmetic cash shop) and the dev team to be mindful enough to use the said income for other content that does not generate income (e.g. pve raids and dungeons). Sure, PoE has done it (from what I can gather) but to your PoE I counter SWTOR. SWTOR (which I have played extensively) after a while was generating income from the cosmetic cash shop. The devs were producing new cosmetic cash shop items regularly, but pve content? Not so much, and by that I mean that they were generating below the absolute minimum. It wasn't zero, but it was <1.
As such, I would be very worried for a game that is f2p/b2p (once) and all its revenue would be generated by the cosmetic cash shop.
Can it be done? Apparently so, because there is the example of PoE. Is it certain that it will be done? No! Something possible is not a certainty.
It will be easier for everyone to go with either of the two options I presented;
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Pure Subscription
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Buy2play the basic game and buy2play every other major expansion, that will be coming biyearly or so. Even if we assume a price tag of $60, paying every two years $60 for the/a game you like isn't much. Even more so, assuming that the said price tag can be much lower. The GW2 expansions cost ~$30, Fractured is suggested that may have a similar price tag (according to the kickstarter pledges), and of course the cosmetic cash shop can be there to cover any additional expenses.
All things considered, I think that the latter model suits Fractured the best.
Other options are possible, some will lead to pay2win (like the one currently proposed with the optional VIP), others will not (see the PoE paradigm), but all in all, I personally think, that Fractured should have a strictly buy2play model.
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I would vote for pure sub personally, VIP is a slippery slope imo
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businesses will always take income from 1 source and divert to another. same way many employees take their sole job income to buy houses, cars, boats, games, PC, consoles, etc. GGG has released good content the past 5 years with their sole income from their cash shop (their crowdfunding aside).
gonna tag @Randy0Marsh for this part: problem with pure subscription is that only 1 game in the last 5 years has maintained that. all other games that wanted pure sub have switch to f2p with cash shop or hybrid.
i don't see a problem with a sole income from the cash shop. Look over the cosmetics PoE offers. look on the forums at the titles displayed and you'll see that people are purchasing those supporter packs. I even spent about $1k with them!
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This game starts to look more and more like a cashgrab.
Having to buy the game to play, + cash shop + subscription... It's like they tossed in all the different payment models they could find.
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@randy0marsh Absolutely agree. Call me old school but I've always been a fan of subs over all this stuff that many games use now a days.
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I played many mmorpgs that cost like €60 plus €15 sub a month. I saw heavy member drops in all of them. WoW is only exeption I know
I think +/- €30 to buy and VIP for €10 a month is better. Many players will drop VIP as soon as they have unlocked close to all +400 skills. It's good to have a cashshop for cosmetics.
I think giving ppl the option to just buy the game for +/- €30 and never have to spent another cent, while giving them access to all game content, ensures for a much more stable and bigger playerbase then €60+€15 a month to be able to play to game.
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@jetah said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
businesses will always take income from 1 source and divert to another. same way many employees take their sole job income to buy houses, cars, boats, games, PC, consoles, etc. GGG has released good content the past 5 years with their sole income from their cash shop (their crowdfunding aside).
gonna tag @Randy0Marsh for this part: problem with pure subscription is that only 1 game in the last 5 years has maintained that. all other games that wanted pure sub have switch to f2p with cash shop or hybrid.
i don't see a problem with a sole income from the cash shop. Look over the cosmetics PoE offers. look on the forums at the titles displayed and you'll see that people are purchasing those supporter packs. I even spent about $1k with them!
The problem with what you are suggesting is that there is only one game that has done the cosmetic cash shop right, PoE. Maybe add GW2 there as well, but a) it used to have a subscription, b) it is buy2play and not f2p and c) it is debatable if it has done the payment model right.
The good thing with the subscription is that we know that it works. And on top of that we know now that, f2p and b2p games are heavily more monetized than subscription games used to be. Even WoW, which uses a heavy subscription monetized paradigm (initial box price, subscription and box price at the expansions), is less monetized than most f2p/b2p MMOs (e.g. SWTOR, BDO etc). The fact that subscription was abandoned by companies that wanted to milk their customers, does not mean that subscription doesn't work. Subscription works. Period.
If you have a good game, the sub model won't affect your game. If you have a bad game, the sub model won't affect your game. f2p and b2p models can kill an otherwise good game. It is not 100% certain that they will, but there is high chance that they will. And "less monetized" the payment model at first glance (like f2p = 0%) the more monetized it is in reality, with "optional" items being sold at the cash shop, but which in reality are very much needed, otherwise you are left behind. Hence p2w.
That said, I will say once more, that for Fractured the pure buy2play model is the best. You buy for $30-60 the initial game and biyearly you buy for ~$30 the expansions. And that is the end of it. If the devs want to add a purely cosmetic cash shop, that is acceptable as well.
Things like, carptenter NPCs, wagons, mules and mounts purchased at the cash shop, "optional" VIP subscriptions and the like, are just things devised to milk the players.
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@jetah said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
gonna tag @Randy0Marsh for this part: problem with pure subscription is that only 1 game in the last 5 years has maintained that. all other games that wanted pure sub have switch to f2p with cash shop or hybrid.
WoW is old for example they had to go hybrid. A new fresh game may work with a common formula P2P (pay to play).
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Why would a VIP sub be P2W? By that logic games like SWTOR and ESO are P2W as well because they offer an optional subscription with lots of benefits. To me, a game is P2W when it lets you buy power for an unlimited amount of money, like those Asian P2W games where one can spend thousands to become stronger than everyone else. I don't see why a mandatory sub would be fine, but an optional sub with a free "demo" would be P2W.
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Personnaly I won’t play a game with a sub. I hate being forced to pay to play and then feeling that I have to play every minute of my life to get my money back. Also a sub based game will discourage a lot of player to play because in the long term to have to pay let say 10 euro by month is a lot of money for some people. At least a b2p with a optional VIP let you play the game and if you want the vip you can buy it when you have the money to do soo. Most mmorpg that were sub and then become f2p probably faced the problem of losing to many player over their payment model.
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@benseine said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
Many players will drop VIP as soon as they have unlocked close to all +400 skills.
Not necessarily. As long as VIP mechanics exists, devs can (and surely will) modify what VIP bonuses are once they see people dropping out of VIP because they maxed their FPs.
I have no doubt about that.
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Hmm I can see both sides of this. I have played Runescape which has a similar VIP thing and P2Win xp boosters and that community has been going strong for years!!! as previous posters have said as long as it doesnt end up messing with power balance at end game where one player has more power than the other player just because they are playing then it shouldnt be considered pay2win. on the other hand if it takes non VIP player a month to level upto cap and it takes VIP player a day to level to cap then there's obviously power imbalance that needs to be addressed! At this point with the info we have its too early to get all mobs with pitchforks about this.
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@althalus said in VIP system : What do you think ?:
Hmm I can see both sides of this. I have played Runescape which has a similar VIP thing and P2Win xp boosters and that community has been going strong for years!!! as previous posters have said as long as it doesnt end up messing with power balance at end game where one player has more power than the other player just because they are playing then it shouldnt be considered pay2win. on the other hand if it takes non VIP player a month to level upto cap and it takes VIP player a day to level to cap then there's obviously power imbalance that needs to be addressed! At this point with the info we have its too early to get all mobs with pitchforks about this.
Or you can look at it as a player who only has 2 hours a day to play vs one who has 6 hours - the player who plays the least can keep up with the other player a bit more. Now the player who plays only for 2 hours a day doesn't need a month.
Now someone who has time and money... not much you can do since they will "level" faster regardless of VIP.
