Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs
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@specter Hmm, seems a little low for a b2p in my opinion, but I would rather that than other mechanics.
I do have to say that @Phaethonas mentioned the knowledge gain being on the p2w side considering the whole game is based round the knowledge system. So now that he has pointed that out I can certainly see how thats questionable. Maybe a bigger clarification on how quick knowledge points would be gained might help?
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@specter said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
Also, I havent looked through everyone elses answers, but ho many character slots will be given in the base game?
2 character slots.
I will agree that 2 character slots are not enough, but I wouldn't mind even 1, in order to make the character slots, sold at the cash shop, enticing, and ditch the VIP system.
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@fibs said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
@prometheus said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
• Do you think Foundation Points should be included as reward?
Yes, starting from €25 / €20 Recruit, but Foundation Points from Kickstarter should be specially tagged and excluded when checking Foundation scores for pre-alpha access. This tag will of course become irrelevant once pre-alpha is over.
Repeating because a lot of people are worried about the implications of Foundation Points, but they don't have to affect prealpha access
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@phaethonas said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
[various complaints about VIP]
Knowledge Points are effectively experience points, but boosting XP gain is not pay to win, because in any game it does not increase the power ceiling, and in this one it doesn't increase power at all. Your character does not become "stronger" from gaining Knowledge Points, except for a short duration from the very start of the game when you don't have enough skills to fill out your build. Fractured is a game of lateral development, remember.
Learning Slots are merely how many skills you can train at a time. Again, increasing these is not pay to win because they do not increase the power ceiling and in this game they don't increase power at all.
You may get to the top faster with VIP, but it is the exact same top. You will not disproportionately "win" against a non-paying player whose character is as equal to yours as possible without VIP, ergo you are not paying to win, ergo it is not pay to win.
The Carpenter NPC however sucks and is terrible.
He performs all player-made building functions, including renewing them. Carpentry should be a player profession like everything else.
Also, he normally costs ingame gold, but VIPs can use him for free. This is generating gold out of nowhere for VIPs and risks economic inflation. (In contrast, trading cash shop items does not generate gold out of nowhere and is therefore fair as long as your economy is otherwise stable.)
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@specter said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
2 character slots.
so 3 worlds and only 2 base character slots =/
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@prometheus said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
Hi everybody!
As the start of our Kickstarter campaign approaches, it’s time for us to submit one of its key components to your evaluation. Today is the turn of Pledge Packs!
We’d like to hear your answers to questions such as:
- Do you think prices are fair? If not, how would you change them?
- What pack would you be interested in?
- Is there anything missing you’d like to see – or perhaps something you think is “too much”?
- Do you think Foundation Points should be included as reward?
As always, your feedback is invaluable to us, and it will be crucial in deciding the success of our Kickstarter campaign. So please check them out and let us hear your voice!
Click here to discover the packs
A couple clarifications:
- Buildings require maintenance. Your own house, farm or other constructions will decay over time and eventually collapse if not maintained. The Carpenter NPC takes care of the issue for you!
- VIP membership includes bonuses such as additional Learning Slots, increased Knowledge Point gains, discounts on Store items and unique cosmetic rewards for accumulated VIP time. It's only time savers and cosmetic stuff - we're not selling power there!
- Price for basic access to alpha is a little too high, max 100€ to get access alpha 1 if you ask me.
I will cut some 200ish-2k pledges too, there are really many pledges.. and seems more a buy your role than play your role if you gonna give importance to the rpg elements.. Im ok with a 10k king or 5k ducats but not all those little one that can own a town or some statues in there.. - Still don't know about the pack, depends on how much consistency this project will give me at the moment i have to pledge, i was looking to try it out before investing something in too.. like San Tommaso.
- As i said for me is too much the all aesthetics things in the map that pledge can buy, im ok with a shield with the emblem of a 10k king pledger but not with all the small ones things, expect for castles\cottages ecc.
- For me Foundations Points should be included yes, having too many scales of reward will just create chaos and disparity around, the foundation is just a way to get some exclusive to promote the game, so who payed 10k have alredy promoted alot the game from my point of view.. and deserve at least a 100lvs in the foundation. Btw i will review the rank rewards too creating a 0-100ish scale instead going with big numbers. For exemple merge rewards every 5-10 level like now but make a level 1,000 exp instead of 200 to small a bit the numbers..
my two cents.
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ARISTOCRAT
Design your custom, unique Guild Crest
You can offer players not just to create their own Guild coat of arms, and allow players to make "animated coat of arms ", roughly speaking file type GIF.
Of course when you are able to create such things. although people who have made such ownership can afford to make an order for such work.
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@jetah said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
@specter said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
2 character slots.
so 3 worlds and only 2 base character slots =/
Good point! Three slots should be the minimum
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@finland did a nice evaluation
i would go with it
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@fibs said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
@phaethonas said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
[various complaints about VIP]
Knowledge Points are effectively experience points, but boosting XP gain is not pay to win, because in any game it does not increase the power ceiling, and in this one it doesn't increase power at all. Your character does not become "stronger" from gaining Knowledge Points, except for a short duration from the very start of the game when you don't have enough skills to fill out your build. Fractured is a game of lateral development, remember.
Learning Slots are merely how many skills you can train at a time. Again, increasing these is not pay to win because they do not increase the power ceiling and in this game they don't increase power at all.
You may get to the top faster with VIP, but it is the exact same top. You will not disproportionately "win" against a non-paying player whose character is as equal to yours as possible without VIP, ergo you are not paying to win, ergo it is not pay to win.
So, if the level cap is 50 and I reach it at day one, but instead you require 5 months to reach it, that is not pay2win to you?! OK!
Furthermore, unlike a hard cap (used in games like WoW and SWTOR), Fractured, for all intents and purposes, will not have a cap. In order to gain all these knowledge points you will need A LOT of time. And by the time 1-10% of the population is about to reach the cap? An expansion most likely will be delivered, offering more things to be learned, and as such the knowledge point cap will rise.
Regardless, there is a misconception about "pay2win". Pay2win, at MMOs, is not limited at who wins at a 1vs1. Pay2win at MMOs, means that a player or a group of players, gain(s) an advantage, over another player, or group, just because someone opened his wallet.
This is why the "minute" and "innocent", "non-p2w", items sold at BDO's cash shop, that were supposed to offer just "quality of life" to the players, ARE PAY2WIN.
So, a player with more knowledge points than me, is a more versatile player. He/she can assume more roles, can hybridize, can experiment, can make mistakes etc. I can't. At a 1vs1, this may not matter. But Fractured is not a game revolving around 1vs1, is it? It is an open world, sandbox game, with a player driven economy. These games revolve around groups, and huge groups at that. Groups that most of the times are above the guild level, at the level of alliances between guilds. At that context, the guild with more versatile players and with versatile players that are more versatile than others, will win in a GvG.
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@phaethonas said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
@fibs said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
@phaethonas said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
[various complaints about VIP]
Knowledge Points are effectively experience points, but boosting XP gain is not pay to win, because in any game it does not increase the power ceiling, and in this one it doesn't increase power at all. Your character does not become "stronger" from gaining Knowledge Points, except for a short duration from the very start of the game when you don't have enough skills to fill out your build. Fractured is a game of lateral development, remember.
You may get to the top faster with VIP, but it is the exact same top. You will not disproportionately "win" against a non-paying player whose character is as equal to yours as possible without VIP, ergo you are not paying to win, ergo it is not pay to win.
So, if the level cap is 50 and I reach it at day one, but instead you require 5 months to reach it, that is not pay2win to you?! OK!
By this logic buying into alpha/beta is p2w since you gain game experience before others who don't pay and therefore accomplish more of the game faster. Even if you gain knowledge points at the same rate, knowing how to do so means you'll gain them faster due to buying in early, which gives an advantage by paying.
Note: I'm still on the fence of VIP and can see both sides for it and against it.
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@kellewic said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
(...)By this logic buying into alpha/beta is p2w since you gain game experience before others(...)
Which is a mute point, since the lowest package already grants you beta 2 access, so by the time the game starts you could in theory have gained all 'player knowledge' you need. VIP gains are a completely different beast though.
Yes, I think prices are fair.
I am looking for either an early bird recruit, early bird founder, or early bird patron. I have not finalized my decision yet.
I don't think anything is missing and I have no preference on the inclusion of Foundation points.
I strongly dislike the VIP service and the carpenter. I know you do not consider them pay to win, but that is what they boil down to in the end. You mentioned yourself in your Q&A that a person with one build could dominate a person with a different (counter) build of same player skill. So having access to these builds can make or break a fight for somebody. The VIP service/carpenter - pay to win issue together with the 'large PvE only areas' make me want to pledge less, but your investment and willingness to answer people make me want to pledge more. I'm torn.
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Just so you all know - we're following the whole discussion closely. We're all busy with the recordings for Kickstarter, but I'll soon make a dedicated thread to explain why the progression boost from VIP is marginal and why it absolutely doesn't affect the "competitive power" of a guild with players using it VS one who doesn't.
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@prometheus said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
(...)why it absolutely doesn't affect the "competitive power"(...)
When explaining that, could you please elaborate (include) how the bonus effect on attributes won't play a role there? As far as I understood, you gain these trough talents, which you'd gain (faster) through being VIP?
'Most bonuses given by an attribute grow exponentially with the score of the attribute – that is, points allocated from 20 to 25 are far more effective than points allocated from, say, 10 to 15(...)'
'Furthermore, reaching a Natural Score of 20 with each attribute grants an additional unique bonus to the character(...)'
'(...)powerful boost to melee damage'
'(...)powerful boost to evasion ratings'
'(...)significant boost to Mana regeneration'
'(...)slowly regenerate Life over time without external intervention'
'(...)significant boost to its accuracy rating'
'(...)significant boost to its luck'Thank you in advance!
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omg xD this is real?
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@prometheus
the problem is marginal. that margin adds up with you have guilds and alliances going against other guilds and alliances. as a primary pvp player i already feel obligated to get VIP for the knowledge point and learning slot advantage. that isn't convenience as you say. Any advantage, no matter how marginal is still an advantage.alternatives to vip:
player portraits
portable campfire gfx
spell gfx (different styles of a fireball)
spell shading gfx (offering green, blue, black, purple)
assuming there's a recall ability to a bind spot, gfx.
events that offer limited duration access.
paid transfer of knowledge from one race to another. (assuming knowledge is per character)
i can think of more if need be.
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@phaethonas said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
So, if the level cap is 50 and I reach it at day one, but instead you require 5 months to reach it, that is not pay2win to you?!
Nope, as long as it's the same level 50 and you being level 50 does not directly stop me from progressing towards level 50.
Also, I wouldn't play any game that takes 5 months to reach max level. It's a game, not a girlfriend.
Furthermore, unlike a hard cap (used in games like WoW and SWTOR), Fractured, for all intents and purposes, will not have a cap. In order to gain all these knowledge points you will need A LOT of time.
Do you know you don't need to get every single skill? You only need to get the specific ones for your core build, which will take like a week or two, and then you're done. Everything after that is an optional luxury.
Regardless, there is a misconception about "pay2win". Pay2win, at MMOs, is not limited at who wins at a 1vs1. Pay2win at MMOs, means that a player or a group of players, gain(s) an advantage, over another player, or group, just because someone opened his wallet.
Yes, I know you think every possible thing a cash shop could offer that people would actually buy is p2w, but thanks for stating it outright.
This is why the "minute" and "innocent", "non-p2w", items sold at BDO's cash shop, that were supposed to offer just "quality of life" to the players, ARE PAY2WIN.
Black Desert Online is a horrible game through and through and whatever bullshit they're doing with the cash shop system is at worst a drop of piss in a yellow sea.
So, a player with more knowledge points than me, is a more versatile player.
In between play sessions, yes.
During one play session, no.
This is the same argument as saying premium character slots are p2w because each character has a different build and you can switch between them.
[GvG]
Won't be affected; a competitive guild will already have a large variety of player roles even if each player only has that one build available.
@jetah said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
spell gfx (different styles of a fireball)
spell shading gfx (offering green, blue, black, purple)... could become p2w by Phaethonas's phobic definition because different effects will have consequences on visibility and player recognition
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@phaethonas 2 character slots are plenty. One to run group, and one for solo. Then the ability to purchase more if wanted. I myself have bad ADD and had the max number of characters when I played WoW. I was constantly deleting weaker characters to make new ones that I wouldn't even fully develop...
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@vastargian said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
@phaethonas 2 character slots are plenty. One to run group, and one for solo. Then the ability to purchase more if wanted. I myself have bad ADD and had the max number of characters when I played WoW. I was constantly deleting weaker characters to make new ones that I wouldn't even fully develop...
Two characters are "plenty" for you and the way you want to play the game.
Some may want to have one demon, one bestie and one human. They won't be able to, unless they pay for one additional character slot. When the game revolves around the three different races, that lock you to a different gameplay, then three is the bare minimum.
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@fibs said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
Nope, as long as it's the same level 50 and you being level 50 does not directly stop me from progressing towards level 50.
You missed the point didn't you?
The point is that you will need more time to reach where I am, and in that time I will have done things like; being the first to clear a raid (special achievement unlock), have made more money, have better gear and so on.
Also, as detailed at another message/reply to you, you have misconceptions about the knowledge system.
Do you know you don't need to get every single skill? You only need to get the specific ones for your core build, which will take like a week or two, and then you're done. Everything after that is an optional luxury.
An optional luxury that as detailed by @Logain is not so "optional"
You (Prometheus) mentioned yourself in your Q&A that a person with one build could dominate a person with a different (counter) build of same player skill. So having access to these builds can make or break a fight for somebody.
Regardless, there is a misconception about "pay2win". Pay2win, at MMOs, is not limited at who wins at a 1vs1. Pay2win at MMOs, means that a player or a group of players, gain(s) an advantage, over another player, or group, just because someone opened his wallet.
Yes, I know you think every possible thing a cash shop could offer that people would actually buy is p2w, but thanks for stating it outright.
It is not a matter of what I think, or what you think. It is a matter of reality.
So, a player with more knowledge points than me, is a more versatile player.
In between play sessions, yes.
During one play session, no.
Explained above.
[GvG]
Won't be affected; a competitive guild will already have a large variety of player roles even if each player only has that one build available.
Oh really? Let me put it another way then. An otherwise non competitive guild will have become competitive because their members paid.
A competitive guild won't need pay2win mechanics, but non-competitive guilds will use the pay2win mechanics and achieve the status of the competitive guild, in this example, versatility.
@jetah said in Kickstarter Update - Pledge Packs:
spell gfx (different styles of a fireball)
spell shading gfx (offering green, blue, black, purple)... could become p2w by Phaethonas's phobic definition because different effects will have consequences on visibility and player recognition
There is no need to put words into my mouth, I am quite open about my views, thank you very much.
