I want to get excited but...
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Instanced PvP is "PvP for fun". Objectives, chill, fun stuff.
Open world PvP is "PvP that carries meaning and weight". It's PvP for land control, for resources, for guild prestige and influence.
Yes open world PvP has a small amount of "ganking" included, but this does in no way make the majority of open world PvP unimportant and meaningless.
That small part of ganking can be remedied by:
- "sandbox way", social organisation and carrying of your "lowbies", helping out guildies that are leveling, pointing out who the gankers are, and making sure they have social consequences (trades refuse to trade with them, raids refuse to invite them to boss fights, etc.)
- "theme park fix where levels exist", making players of level X only being able to attack players up to X-4 levels lower then them.
Since this game is sandbox, and without levels, and people are able to start playing with access to full stats, "theme park fix" isn't needed. "Social fix" can still be applied, that is up to community.
What is NOT the way to deal with it is "mechanically prevent open PvP from happening, or punishing it", because that would:
- make game "not sandbox"
- ruin the game that's obviously based on open PvP fights for resources and land control (spotlights)
So people will just have to live with open world PvP, because this game relies on open PvP as it's major component. Punishing that would just instantly kill the game all together.
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@gothix tell to those partecipating Esports that instanced pvp is just for fun. Low players have no clue about what means pro gaming, hard core gaming. There is nothing balanced in open world (open world is made "to have fun" mostly to ambush and gank). In instanced PvP you get the same number of team mates vs a same number of enemies moslty with the same skill if there is a MMR system. At the moment I have no problems how's the developed and I think restriction will be fine I leave everything to test.
So people will just have to live with open world PvP, because this game relies on open PvP as it's major component. Punishing that would just instantly kill the game all together.
I really don't see why the game should not have everything so it's player choice but I suppose that pkers are scare to walk for hours without meet victims around. Forcing people to stay there is not a solution cause people if get annoyed mey leave the game. I really find a bettter choice to offer everything then will be up to players.
In the end remebr the most importat thing: A game must be funny cause games are made to have fun.
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@gothix said in I want to get excited but...:
Instanced PvP is "PvP for fun". Objectives, chill, fun stuff.
Open world PvP is "PvP that carries meaning and weight".
[...]I'm so sick of this "has meaning and weight" bullcrap people puke out as the catch-all platitude for everything they want. No, it doesn't. Nothing in the game "has meaning or weight". They are all pretend video game fights for different pretend rewards and you're just pretending the particular one you want is more valuable than everyone else's.
Arena PVP ("instanced") is not magically inconsequential; I guess you haven't played a single MMO made in the last ten years, since all of them have extensive game modes, rankings, and reward systems for arena PVP and many are founded solely on arena PVP competition.
Quit the "open world PVP" euphemism for PKing. PKing is not PVP. PKing is not gameplay. PKers are not legitimate players, they are parasites just like bots, and their desires should not be considered when designing a game.
Which is why Fractured basically won't; there's nowhere in the game where PKers can succeed. Not only are characters not vastly divided by level, but PKers literally can't attack 90% of Arboreus, they can't attack without severe consequence on Syndesia, and nobody on Tartaros will be the easy target PKers need to compensate for their mean parents.
If you're going to go on about duels on Syndesia or guild wars on Tartaros, well congratulations, that's irrelevant to what we were talking about. The OP was worried about Demons invading casual players to PK easy targets and that will simply not be a sustainable pastime in Fractured, nor should it be in any game.
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@fibs said in I want to get excited but...:
PKers are not legitimate players, they are parasites just like bots, and their desires should not be considered when designing a game.
I'd say that about all those sensitive players. I guess it's a point of view.
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After hanging around for a few days, reading the forums and re-digesting the Spotlights; I am officially excited for this game - what it could be. So far, I think, though the community has its "sides" (specifically PvP vs PvE), that there is a respectfulness (for the most part) of ideas.
The role play thread started by @Darian gives me hope that people might act how their characters might act given their alignment and even racial tendencies. I think this is something sorely missing in games today. Mostly it's just min/maxing based on some template.
The Correlation between School and Alignment Poll() @Gothix started was interesting to see the results. It will be interesting to see how it actually plays out through alpha and beta periods.
The many replies in this thread were fantastic to read and engage with and although I don't agree with everything (I mean, who would?); I'm always interested to understand the various points of view and how, in some cases, they are diametrically opposed.
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I hate mandatory PVP and will never support a game that encourages douche bags to gank people indiscriminately. It's a game. I should be able to avoid having my day ruined. If someone's entire enjoyment with a game revolves around doing things to other human beings that cause harm, I'm not interested in playing with that person.
That said, I get that a lot of people enjoy PVP. I just don't get how its no longer fun for some people if they can't impose it whenever and wherever they want.
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@jackbinimbul said in I want to get excited but...:
I hate mandatory PVP and will never support a game that encourages douche bags to gank people indiscriminately. It's a game. I should be able to avoid having my day ruined. If someone's entire enjoyment with a game revolves around doing things to other human beings that cause harm, I'm not interested in playing with that person.
That said, I get that a lot of people enjoy PVP. I just don't get how its no longer fun for some people if they can't impose it whenever and wherever they want.
so, you'll never leave the safe zone on the beast planet or similar if the human planet has it?
a mandatory pvp game doesn't have ganking because it's always on pvp. when you step out of any safe area you know you're going to be attacked, you don't know when but you know it will happen.
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@JackBinimbul you need to understand that not every MMO can be PvE.
Sometimes there is open PvP danger involved (yes, that includes attacks even when you don't want them to happen, that's the point, otherwise there is no danger), like in case of Fractured.
In the end everyone has a choice and can decide which MMO he wants to play. Asking for a whole MMO to change, just to fit a personal desires is not the way to go.
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@jackbinimbul they are like that but don't worry about it, I'm defendending the PvErs by months. They just want an Open World Arena Full Loot, they reallly does not care about other feature/tasks. That why I remeber alway that a MMORPG must have PvE activities. Anyway DS have a clear view and does not want to make an "Open World Arena" or a "Gank Fest Game". Said this, trust DS and stay tuned.
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@miffi said in I want to get excited but...:
@phaethonas He does have a point in that it seems that its just pk'ers looking for easy kills against those who dont know how to. I think thats the fear a lot of people have. But then again I'm quite happy with the decision DS have done with the stat reduction so I dont think its much of an issue anymore.
I have explicitly said that both the extreme pve players (aka care bears) as well as the extreme pvp players (pk'ers looking for easy kills as you call them) should not be catered at Fractured, if the devs want the game to work.
Finland on the other hand, wants care bears to be catered (he has said so explicitly) and wants all pvpers (and not only those looking for easy killings) to be locked into an instance (see arenas), all the while Fractured is an open world, sandbox game!
That is insane.
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@finland said in I want to get excited but...:
@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:
So, for all intents and purposes you want Fractured not to cater to competitive pvpers, because you are afraid of them! OK got it!
Stop it or I will get angry cause you do not want to listen others and you do not want to understand.
- I'm not afraid to PvP.
- Battleground (instanced PvP) it's skillfull
- I play Mostly PvP games aka FPS/RTS and Moba
- You act like it
- I beg to differ, but regardless this game is not about instances. Is that so hard for you to understand?
- I don't care
You are wrong thinking Pkers are hard core PvPers.
I never said that though, did I?
I used the term "extreme" and not "hard core" for a reason.
Yes, your attitude is bordeline toxic, because your "point" goes against fundamental concepts of the game.
The only toxic here is you making others feel angry.
If the truth makes you feel angry that is not something to blame me for.
Fractured is an open world, sandbox game. It is being build around that concept, as well as the concept of travelling between the different planets. You proposing instances, is insane.
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@gothix said in I want to get excited but...:
@fibs said in I want to get excited but...:
PKers are not legitimate players, they are parasites just like bots, and their desires should not be considered when designing a game.
I'd say that about care bears. I guess it's a point of view.
then you would just be wrong
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@finland said in I want to get excited but...:
@jackbinimbul they are like that but don't worry about it, I'm defendending the PvErs by months. They just want an Open World Arena Full Loot, they reallly does not care about other feature/tasks. That why I remeber alway that a MMORPG must have PvE activities. Anyway DS have a clear view and does not want to make an "Open World Arena" or a "Gank Fest Game". Said this, trust DS and stay tuned.
A lot of the gankers here are just fearmongering imo. All that talk about gank legions visiting Arboreus every 30 min, Beastmen being so pacifist that they won't come to the defense of their planet and let their fellow Beastmen die. Also, some people are still making it sound like all of Arboreus will be PvP when in reality it's not. The gankers have an extreme hate for PvE players but know they can't gank them in Fractured, so now they're trying to discourage PvE players from playing Fractured through lies and fearmongering.
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@phaethonas Whilst I dont agree that PvPer's should be locked out, it is a lot harder to argue for those who want to impose themselves on others against those who dont. I think thats the core difference. One group isnt happy with fighting each other and desire to involves those who dont and people feel as those others are going out of their way to make sure they wont enjoy a game they would otherwise have. Again, I dont feel though that PvP should be stuck behind an arena. It should stay open world and just keep the rules DS have in place - 2 worlds with pretty much open pvp with the third very restricted and debuffed if done so. I personally think this is the best of both.
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@phaethonas you have some problem with understanding. I have never asked to replace open world pvp with instanced pvp I only asked to give us also objective pvp aka capture the flag and so on cause players like me does not care to go around in an open world arena for some FFA.
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@vengu yeah but till I'll be around that will never happen if it's possible/allow to gank it's fair give the same liberty to pvers to play the way they like. I will be happy if there will be not much griefers on abroreus and for sure I will not cry if that kind of players will not like the game and will leave.
For sure I will cry if there will not enought demons invading syndesia during eclips. I will cry if there will be not enough player sieging. I will cry if tartaros will be not a totally chaos land with crazy ffa like a battleroyal.
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@vengu said in I want to get excited but...:
The gankers have an extreme hate for PvE players
Actually no. Gankers don't hate anyone, they are just playing and having fun (not that I'm defending ganking as way of fun). But them killing other players does not mean they hate them.
Actually it's those sensitive PvEers that have an extreme hate, and not only for gankers but for PvP players in general. And it doesn't matter if it's a gank or equal level attack.
It's them that roam around the forums, even long before game is even released (visible from examples here) and talk against all PvP and PvP players, often even insulting them. Furthermore, they lie and twist truth in every way, trying to push the devs to make the game as PvE as possible so they would be "protected" and have their "safe spaces".
Note: In Fractured ganking will not be possible in 1 vs 1, as everyone starts with access to full stats and there is no levels. Extra knowledge only offers more alternate builds, so we could say it offers mild advantage over player that recently started, but nothing more. Nothing close to gank.
Ganking will only be possible in form of greatly outnumbering your target(s).
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@miffi ' m not asking to remove open world pvp. I just prefer instanced pvp cause give a motivation. It's a match and you can win or lose without hurt others. I have never asked to remove the open world pvp.
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@gothix said in I want to get excited but...:
It's care bears that roam around the forums, even long before game is even released (visible from examples here) and talk agains all PvP and PvP players, often even insulting them.
That's bullshit. It's the PvP players who are constantly attacking PvE players on the forum. No PvE player here is trying to turn Fractured into a full PvE game. I've yet to see a PvE player call for Tartaros to become a carebear land but I've seen plenty of PvP players demand that Arboreus becomes 100% PvP.
Furthermore, they lie and twist truth in every way, trying to push the devs to make the game as PvE as possible so they would be "protected" and have their "safe spaces".
Safe spaces are already a thing. A good amount of Arboreus is PvE-only, and the areas that aren't have a lot of restrictions in place to ensure that Arboreus won't become a bloodbath. Heck, spotlight 6 says the following:
If you play as a Beastman on Arboreus, you’ll often wander zones completely devoid of hostile PvP – particularly as a new player, and you’re unlikely to be the victim of an aggression from other races in the rest of the world as well. If you’re Evil and looking to travel to Arboreus to go on a killing spree, you won’t succeed – you’d rather have a clear PvE / gathering objective in mind and complete it as fast as you can!
Does that not sound like a safe space to you?
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I don't get the "forced PvP" attitude. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. If you don't like PvP then stick to the 90% safe spots on Arboreus and the Good towns on Syndesia. If you venture out into non-safe zones (by your own choice) and get killed; too bad. Nobody forced you to do it; you chose to do it. I don't mean to sound harsh, but as @Prometheus posted:
We are deeply convinced we can make the PvE and PvP crowds coexist in Fractured. In fact, we could call that one of the design pillars of the game itself!
If players are looking for PvE only, the choices are stick to the safe zones only or play a pure PvE game. Pure PvP players won't have access to the pure PvE areas without huge debuffs/drain of vital energies with only 30 minutes on Arboreus and a "couple hours" on Syndesia. Looking to "raid" Arboreus - as Spotlight #6 says "you won't succeed" - however, I have no doubt Demons will try.
That doesn't mean PvP players won't catch venturing PvE players outside those safe spots though - that's a choice a PvE player has to make - either accept you can only gain so much Knowledge in the safe spots, or risk it and go outside those safe spots. Outside those safe spots you are agreeing, by playing the game, to be part of the greater open PvP world.
To me, Fractured is kind of like if PoE and ArcheAge had a baby. It looks a lot like PoE, but has many characteristics of ArcheAge - open world PvP with plenty of safe spots.
