I want to get excited but...
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@gothix as far as I know we are not gonna get instanced dungeons/raids just open world thats why we need also pvp off zone cause an open dungeon in a pvp on full loot zone it's just pvp not pve. Every time I must beready tofight players became pvp. But I'm like you I would like to see some dungeons/raids and some instanced battlegrounds or they could try the open world controll the point, escort and so on. I rellylike objectives PvP. FFA is not really for me I need a good purpose to do it like punishing pkers.
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@kellewic said in I want to get excited but...:
Yes, I've read the many threads and pages about PvE vs. PvP and it's definitely not only a heated topic but also a hard problem to tackle.
I really like the idea of the potential struggle between races/alignments. I agree with some statements made by @Phaethonas in another thread I read this morning as well - https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/1481/feature-spotlight-6-pvp-alignment-crime/52 - regarding Demons seeing this huge disadvantage as a challenge and alliances being created. But, this is only half the story in my opinion. If such an alliance did form, I could see one being formed on the Good side as well - this could create a very interesting inter-planetary struggle for resources
I doubt that such a "Good" alliance would be formed, and that (such an alliance not forming) would be a problem actually.
If you are right and such a "Good" alliance forms, then the pvpers will have the challenge that we want and the pvers will be protected to a certain, and possibly sufficient degree. The problem though is that, the "good guys" won't be incentivised to form such an alliance. Any "good alliances" formed will be limited at Syndesia, the human planet, and will be formed around politics and dynamics at that planet.
These alliances will have no reason to go to Arboreus and protect the care bears there. The Arboreus players could be split to two categories. The spine-less care bears and those who realize that when you try to marry pve and pvp in an open world environment (as Fractured tries to do), you have to accept that you may be killed at times by that pvper who is roleplaying a "bad guy". The spine-less care bears, won't be able to form nor participate in an Alliance of Good. So who is gonna protect them? Who is gonna rush to support/help them, when they won't be helping themselves? People tend to help other people in need, if the latter (those who are in need of help), are trying to help themselves. So no "Alliance of Good" will be formed at Arboreus, and no "Alliance of Good" formed at Syndesia will bother to protect the care bear beasties.
This will bring unbalance at the game. This will create the exact problem the care bears don't won't to face; being ganked/killed. And it will do so exponentially.
The mechanics that were announced will incentivize the "Bad Guys" to make peace at times and form a necessary alliance that without they won't survive.
As I said, you need mechanics that will keep the demons.....Fractured (pun intended). Instead mechanics that will incentivise demons to band together were announced!
Have no doubt, if I play the game, I will be there and I will be advocating unity. But uniting a large group of people, let alone "wild" pvpers, is not an easy task, under normal circumstances. I doubt that my message of occasional unity will be heard, if the said unity is not needed in order to go and get pine wood. When you won't be able to get pine wood though, you will be willing to listen to my message of this Alliance.
As I've said before. Fractured tries to combine pvp and pve. This means that extreme pvpers (call them gankers or otherwise if you like) have no place at this game. But this also means that, extreme pvers (I call them care-bears) also have no place in this game. If the game tries to cater at either of them, the balance is being lost, and the game will ultimately fail.
It may take 3-4 years for the game to collapse, Dynamight Studios may have made a profit by then, but from a player's perspective? The game will have failed.
tl;dr
Do not incentivise demons to band together.
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Great post with many valid points. For this game my personal play desire is around about 95% PvE. However, it does make things so much more interesting if there is that 5% risk of demons invading.
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@esoba there is a 100% chance demon invading if you read threads around, pkers (demon mostly) care to play fractured just to harass Arboreus ;).
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@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:
As I've said before. Fractured tries to combine pvp and pve. This means that extreme pvpers (call them gankers or otherwise if you like) have no place at this game. But this also means that, extreme pvers (I call them care-bears) also have no place in this game. If the game tries to cater at either of them, the balance is being lost, and the game will ultimately fail.
I'm wondering if you are joking. Tartaros is for extreme pvpers. The problem is only for carebears. We'll se if they have their spot (they must have one) . Asking to FFA everywere is silly. Extreme pvpers that want kill carebears/ gatheres hahaha I call hem spineless. Ambush stile is spineless attitude ;). An invasion looks more like a war and could be funny but the number will make the difference and unbalance the fight prolly.
If fractured were hosted on two servers, one PvE (flag to pvp everywhere but only flagged can be attacked) and one PvP (ffa everywhere without debuffs and restrincions) I wonder if you would play fractured on the PvP server.
It may take 3-4 years for the game to collapse, Dynamight Studios may have made a profit by then, but from a player's perspective? The game will have failed.
I don't know and we'll see. I'm only sure that making games for pkers (givin hem what they want) is a fail.
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@esoba Understandable but I must agree with the other person. Likely to be a surety that Arb will be invaded.
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@finland You are quite right. I misspoke. Essentially I meant to convey play time/concentration. With this game I would prefer for 95% of my gameplay to be PvE, with 5% being PvP, repelling said demonic invasions.
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@esoba yeah I'm also way more pver and I usually do pvp in battelgrounds cause looks more achieving to me but here defend a guild city or defend innocents from evil intent could be the right purpose to do some pvp 30-50% of the time.
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@fibs said in I want to get excited but...:
@kellewic said in I want to get excited but...:
There is this universe of planets with 3 distinct races. It seems most people playing Humans or Beastmen (specifically) don't want to deal with PvP and the Demons should just stick to killing each other. So basically we end up with what every other MMO has except we call the segregation planets instead of servers (yawn).
Wrong.
Characters on different servers are completely unable to play with one another, except for extremely limited cross-server events which tend to be chaotic mass guild wars or world bosses.
The statement was in regards to Demons specifically which seem to depend mostly on eclipses. However, I wasn't very clear in that regard.
In Fractured, Arboreus is a strictly Good (PvE) planet, Tartaros is a strictly Evil (PvP) planet, and Syndesia is the meeting grounds for both of them. Players will be perfectly free to go to any of the three planets they desire, although Good-aligned players are harshly limited on Tartaros and Evil-aligned players are harshly limited on Arboreus.
Are Demons free to do this at will or strictly depend on eclipses? I remember something about Stargates, but haven't read any specifics on the mechanics yet.
Disadvantages aside; I guarantee Demons will find a way to invade Human and Beastmen territories - it's their nature.
They won't be able to invade Beastman territories because Evil-aligned characters (of any race) are completely unable to enter the bulk of Arboreus. The few areas they will be able to enter will see them effectively burned away by the planet itself.
Immediately burned away? So far there's a 30m time span they can "survive". The threats they face may not be insurmountable - wildlife, plants, whatever. If experience has taught me one thing, developers can never anticipate what their users will do.
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@phaethonas said in I want to get excited but...:
@kellewic said in I want to get excited but...:
Yes, I've read the many threads and pages about PvE vs. PvP and it's definitely not only a heated topic but also a hard problem to tackle.
I really like the idea of the potential struggle between races/alignments. I agree with some statements made by @Phaethonas in another thread I read this morning as well - https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/1481/feature-spotlight-6-pvp-alignment-crime/52 - regarding Demons seeing this huge disadvantage as a challenge and alliances being created. But, this is only half the story in my opinion. If such an alliance did form, I could see one being formed on the Good side as well - this could create a very interesting inter-planetary struggle for resources
I doubt that such a "Good" alliance would be formed, and that (such an alliance not forming) would be a problem actually.
If you are right and such a "Good" alliance forms, then the pvpers will have the challenge that we want and the pvers will be protected to a certain, and possibly sufficient degree. The problem though is that, the "good guys" won't be incentivised to form such an alliance. Any "good alliances" formed will be limited at Syndesia, the human planet, and will be formed around politics and dynamics at that planet.
I was thinking more in response to a consistent threat from an Evil alliance, which gives the incentive. Granted getting any large number of players together consistently is a challenge in of itself.
These alliances will have no reason to go to Arboreus and protect the care bears there. The Arboreus players could be split to two categories. The spine-less care bears and those who realize that when you try to marry pve and pvp in an open world environment (as Fractured tries to do), you have to accept that you may be killed at times by that pvper who is roleplaying a "bad guy". The spine-less care bears, won't be able to form nor participate in an Alliance of Good. So who is gonna protect them? Who is gonna rush to support/help them, when they won't be helping themselves? People tend to help other people in need, if the latter (those who are in need of help), are trying to help themselves. So no "Alliance of Good" will be formed at Arboreus, and no "Alliance of Good" formed at Syndesia will bother to protect the care bear beasties.
This is the part where I'm still a bit unclear. Each planet has it's own unique resources; not necessarily better, just different. Is there any incentive for other planets to want said resources and thus potentially creating strife or is this really just 3 games with one engine?
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@kellewic said in I want to get excited but...:
Are Demons free to do this at will or strictly depend on eclipses? I remember something about Stargates, but haven't read any specifics on the mechanics yet
Eclips may happen only on Syndesia. Demons can invade also without eclipse and they can do on both Syndesia and Arboreus. The eclips event just remove the debuffs from demons while invadin Syndesia.
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@kellewic said in I want to get excited but...:
Immediately burned away? So far there's a 30m time span they can "survive". The threats they face may not be insurmountable - wildlife, plants, whatever. If experience has taught me one thing, developers can never anticipate what their users will do.
They can stay for 30 mins in the pvp areas of Arboreus while debuffed. If they enter safe ares they get burned instant. About Syndesia I don't remer how long they can stay there, prolly h24.
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@kellewic said in I want to get excited but...:
This is the part where I'm still a bit unclear. Each planet has it's own unique resources; not necessarily better, just different. Is there any incentive for other planets to want said resources and thus potentially creating strife or is this really just 3 games with one engine?
Mainly if you want to unluck all the knowledge system you need to travel everywhere. It's one game just with 3 places with 3 different playstyle. Resources are non necessary better, Tartaros prolly will get the most rare resources. Anyway the purpose of invading Arboreus is just to kill people and bring chaos, the resources are just an excuse
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@phaethonas PvE carebears don't have to worry because a good amount of Arboreus is strictly PvE. Also, Prometheus hinted that a lot of the PvE content on Arboreus will be located in those PvE areas.
@finland said in I want to get excited but...:
@esoba there is a 100% chance demon invading if you read threads around, pkers (demon mostly) care to play fractured just to harass Arboreus ;).
I have to agree it's quite hilarious how some people on this forum are calling Fractured a carebear PvE game just because 1 of the 3 planets is a PvE planet. Some people are truly here for the sole purpose of harassing PvE players, and don't seem to show much interest in the other PvP aspects of this game. Says a lot about their skill level imo.
Mainly if you want to unluck all the knowledge system you need to travel everywhere. It's one game just with 3 places with 3 different playstyle. Resources are non necessary better, Tartaros prolly will get the most rare resources. Anyway the purposo of invading Arboreus is just to kill people and brin chaos, the resource it's just an excuse
I agree, I've seen a lot of excuses. Some claim they want to invade Arboreus for resources, others claim they want to invade Arboreus to kill bots (lol).
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@vengu said in I want to get excited but...:
@phaethonas PvE carebears don't have to worry because a good amount of Arboreus is strictly PvE. Also, Prometheus hinted that a lot of the PvE content on Arboreus will be located in those PvE areas.
@finland said in I want to get excited but...:
@esoba there is a 100% chance demon invading if you read threads around, pkers (demon mostly) care to play fractured just to harass Arboreus ;).
I have to agree it's quite hilarious how some people on this forum are calling Fractured a carebear PvE game just because 1 of the 3 planets is a PvE planet. Some people are truly here for the sole purpose of harassing PvE players, and don't seem to show much interest in the other PvP aspects of this game. Says a lot about their skill level imo.
Mainly if you want to unluck all the knowledge system you need to travel everywhere. It's one game just with 3 places with 3 different playstyle. Resources are non necessary better, Tartaros prolly will get the most rare resources. Anyway the purposo of invading Arboreus is just to kill people and brin chaos, the resource it's just an excuse
I agree, I've seen a lot of excuses. Some claim they want to invade Arboreus for resources, others claim they want to invade Arboreus to kill bots (lol).
According to Spotlight #2
Compared to Syndesia and Tartaros, Arboreus is the planet that most resembles its father Elysium, especially given it’s the only one that still retains Elysium’s primal energy, which manifests itself into ever-growing deposits of magical crystals, coveted by all the creatures of the System.
Crystals aren’t the only resource on Arboreus that stirs the greed of the people who don’t inhabit it, however. The planet is rich in wood, stone and minerals, although beastmen usually don’t take an interest in mining and blacksmithing. Indeed, the homes of beastmen are mostly made of wood, while stone is usually kept to erect public buildings.
So if these resources aren't special why do others covet them? Why would they stir greed?
Also tied directly to the knowledge system
Exploration is a staple of the Fractured experience, strongly tied to the progression of your character. In Fractured, you’ll want to travel to faraway lands to discover every inch of the world to extract all the knowledge hidden there and expand the options given to your character.
This means Demons must explore other planets (where they are able to access anyway) and encountering Beastmen is inevitable.
And
Demons are a notable exception to this rule, having been gifted by Babilis the ability to travel to other worlds more easily to bring terror to the other much hated races. However, the penalties they’ll be subject to are no smaller than those suffered by the other races… and sometimes, actually worse.
So Demons wanting to "invade" other planets is not an excuse; it's part of the core game.
I'm not trying to "argue" PvP vs. PvE, but from that Spotlight alone, these things are what the developers see as core to the game. This is the exact point I have reservations about since many PvE only players don't want to take part in that aspect, and even want to limit or completely remove it. yet the game is built on it.
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@kellewic Because what the spotlight says and what Prometheus says on the forum doesn't always add up.
So if these resources aren't special why do others covet them? Why would they stir greed?
Also tied directly to the knowledge systemFor example, according to this post by Prometheus, the resources on Arboreus aren't strictly better or worse. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/1091/clarification-on-the-target-audience/58
This means Demons must explore other planets (where they are able to access anyway) and encountering Beastmen is inevitable.
True, but there are zones on Arboreus that cannot be accessed by Demons. Beastmen who stay in those zones won't run into Demons.
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Well we are here to give our feedback and point of view. A FFA on Arboreus would have been a fail
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So if these resources aren't special why do others covet them?
Because Arboreus lets you gather resources without being ganked by campers 24/7. PKers of any race are unable to enter the bulk of Arboreus.
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@vengu said in I want to get excited but...:
@kellewic Because what the spotlight says and what Prometheus says on the forum doesn't always add up.
So if these resources aren't special why do others covet them? Why would they stir greed?
Also tied directly to the knowledge systemFor example, according to this post by Prometheus, the resources on Arboreus aren't strictly better or worse. https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/topic/1091/clarification-on-the-target-audience/58
Right; and I guess the source of my confusion. If they aren't better or worse then all the text about coveting and greed is just hype.
I know it's still early in development so I'll take a wait and see approach on how they try to balance the PvP and PvE aspects. I usually play PvE, but the challenges regarding Demons interest me.
This means Demons must explore other planets (where they are able to access anyway) and encountering Beastmen is inevitable.
True, but there are zones on Arboreus that cannot be accessed by Demons. Beastmen who stay in those zones won't run into Demons.
Correct, but I expect not all Beastmen to stay in those areas all the time. Even pure PvE players want knowledge and if the lure is great enough they might risk venturing out and getting killed - even if by chance that a Demon or group of Demons happen to be there at that time since it's been stated Demons getting there will be hard.
From what I've read on the forums, it seems many people want Arboreus to be completely free from PvP, or at least not forced on them, creating a point of contention. I think pure PvE players need to accept they might get killed just like PvP players need to accept it will be hard to get to Arboreus let alone survive for long.
Spotlight #6 says Beastmen are "unlikely" to be attacked - that's not a guarantee. I think the difficulty of "raiding" Arboreus is the catalyst for Demons to want to make it happen. I'm sure Demons will spend more time with Humans simply because it's easier to get there, but that lure of "it's really hard to do" will be seen as a challenge, even if much of the planet is cut off from Evil.
I'm excited yet reserved due to this basic conflict of game tenet and some player expectations I've seen on the forums.
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@finland said in I want to get excited but...:
Well we are here to give our feedback and point of view. A FFA on Arboreus would have been a fail
I agree about a FFA since this isn't a pure PvP game; but the aspect of having some risk entices me even if I play a Beastmen character. Right now I'm leaning towards Demon just for the challenge.
I think if Beastmen venture into non-safe areas and are killed that's their choice and need to accept it. Just as Demons need to accept if they venture to Arboreus and lose all their stuff that's their problem
