Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread
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@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
I thought it was weird that you were singling Nekrage out when there was someone else doing the exact same thing so I did some snooping.
Turns out you were attacking him on the Discord server yesterday lol. Seems like you have a horse in this race.
I think we can have a discussion without your childish behavior. Sound like a good plan?
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This post is deleted!
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@Hilgard @Hilgard said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
I thought it was weird that you were singling Nekrage out when there was someone else doing the exact same thing so I did some snooping.
Turns out you were attacking him on the Discord server yesterday lol. Seems like you have a horse in this race.
I think we can have a discussion without your childish behavior. Sound like a good plan?
Hey Hilgard. I truly appreciate the support.
Ya I unfortunately had a run-in with this dude before.
At this point I am walking away from public facing feedback as Fractured suffers from an unfortunate side effect of the 3 planet systems. Casual babies and hardcode pvp players in the same community just won't work.
I will keep my eye on Fractured but it's becoming increasingly obvious that the "ONE GAME FOR ALL!" system is not going to work without different servers with different rulesets. Different SERVERS not planets.
Letting these people fight with each other.
"The secret to happiness it to not argue with fools."
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- I find the bounty system great as it is perfectly suitable to balance the risk vs reward for ganking.
- The bounty system should be finetuned so that killing once would yield a low punishment, while going berserk should make the bountyhunter rich. Negative karma earned by a lot of ganks should not be restoreable other than by jail on this planet. At the same time the open pvp fans should get their full, unrestricted pvp planet in the future just as the full pve players.
- The consensual and toggelable pvp should be promoted. The easiest way would be to reward some of your cash shop decorations to militia pvpers - lets say a statue for every ten kills, or for the ten best guilds of the week or so. In the future there should be more suffisticated millitia missons and rewards.
So far thumbs up.
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Here are my thoughts and ideas.
-1 to -100 is a simple escort to the jail with maybe a 5 or 10 gold fine. Then you are free to go, no actual jail time. It isn’t likely that a bounty hunter is going to bother with that as there isn’t any profit, however, some real gung-ho folks might want to remind those evil players of what might happen if they proceed upon their chosen path.
After that you break down everything from -101 to -10,000 and assign time allotments and fines
There has been a great deal of discussion about folks amassing gold and then not caring about paying a fine. I agree that this will be an issue. What I wonder is if we could tweak this a bit. So instead of being able to pay with standard gold, prisoners can only pay with, let’s call it fool’s gold (or whatever)
This is only obtainable by the prisoner when they opt to go out into the world and do PVE to work off their debt instead of doing jail time. At this point all normal gold drops become fool’s gold drops and the criminal can collect this to pay off their debt.
Furthermore, a criminal may enlist their friends to help them. These friends would need to come to the jail in which the criminal resides and sign up to help pay his debt. At which time all said players would be locked into PVE mode until enough fool’s gold was collected to pay the fine. Fool’s gold can’t be saved. Once the fine is paid any remaining fool’s gold that was collected towards a specific fine vanishes.
You should be able to work off your fine by working for the city you are jailed in. The prisoner could mine, make weapons or armor and contribute to the city upkeep. If this happens then perhaps there could be a chest in each relevant city building for prisoners to deposit the items that they collect or harvest. Citizens couldn’t place items in these chests but would be free to take what they needed, prisoners could only despite items and only what is relevant to each building.
Also when a prisoner is checked into the jail all of his personal backpack items should be removed and placed in safe keeping until such time as he pays his fine or serves his time. Anything he is wearing of course remains with him. If they opt to work off their fine of go earn it then they go out with an empty backpack (yes they keep their weapons) Why? It is just a little extra work for the criminal. They have to go get food and hammers and such again.
Anyway, this has been my 49cents worth.
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Some people in this thread have gotten way off track. Let's bring it back to discussion about the actual Bounty/Jail system.
First off, just like @Kralith and @Alexian and some others have been saying. This is a system ONLY for Syndesia. Yes, it's true that most of the PvP community that cares enough about the game to post feedback on here actually plan to play on Tartaros, so when FULLY IMPLEMENTED, this system will not affect them. The PvP community is giving feedback based on a pvp point of view, telling what they see as flaws for the bounty/jail system. Attacking @Nekrage here when he's trying to give feedback on a system that ultimately won't affect his playstyle on Tartaros is completely immature and missing the whole point of the thread. He's not trying to ruin Syndesia and turn it into Tartaros. He's trying to give you feedback on this system from a pvp player's point of view.
Likewise for the Arboreus players, they hate any type of PvP, whether it's "ganking newbies" OR "legitimate PvP", so their disdain for pvp content shows in what they have to say about the bounty/jail system too, yet it won't affect them either if they are planning to stay on Arboreus on release.
However since both extreme groups are stuck on Syndesia for the time being, this is why it's such a hot debate.
I propose that we try to split our feedback into two different section (if possible.)
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Feedback on the Bounty Hunting/Jail system in terms of the alpha test.
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Feedback on the Bounty Hunting/Jail system in terms of an actual feature on release.
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My feedback on the bounty hunting/jail system in terms of this alpha test:
This was not a good time to implement that feature, because we are also getting more pvp focused communities into the alpha test. People who WANT to focus on pvp would align to evil JUST FOR THE OPTION OF BEING ABLE TO FIGHT ANYONE THEY COME ACROSS. I am not talking about the few who are intent on griefing/ganking/making others miserable. I am talking about the players who do actually enjoy pvp to the fullest and will go the extra mile to help test things like pvp balance, etc. Not all PVP players = evil gankers who only want to ruin the game for new players. PLEASE KEEP THIS IN MIND. If Fractured is trying to get feedback and reach out to the pvp communities, it does not help to have a system implemented at the moment that would punish new testers who are merely looking for as much pvp as they can get. Yes, I know there is the militia system, but that is completely overlooked and there is no incentive for pvp guilds to join a militia on the hope that other pvp guilds join a different militia. As of now the militia system in the test only leads to an artificial pvp environment. Which leads the pvp-loving players to go and flag evil so that they will have more pvp opportunities.
Maybe the militia feature needs to be reworked into a more viable option, so that the bounty hunting/jail system feedback isn't all mixed up. I do understand that the pvp community needs to see that the bounty hunting/jail system is supposed to be a system to protect Syndesia. It's actually not really supposed to be a large scale pvp system at all. It's not supposed to be what pvp guilds are using as war against each other. xD
But right now, the militias is not a viable option, so the bigger pvp groups ARE using this system as a type of war when it shouldn't be. And that probably mixes up the feedback a bit.- My feedback on the Bounty Hunting/Jail system in terms of an actual feature on release:
- The minimum sentence needs to be reduced. It needs to be based on the actual amount of negative karma the player has accrued. A minimum of 24 hrs/2k gold just for flagging evil and dying is ridiculous.
- The prison system needs to be tweaked. I'm not exactly sure how yet, but there are a few good suggestions in this thread. For example the idea to make being a bounty hunter an attractive pvp status incentive. Etc.
- There should be a reason to keep the "punished" player in game. Like @Nekrage said, time spent out of a game is actually bad for the game's longevity. There's a reason why games try to be more addicting! This is more from a marketing type of view than from any moral "oh he did a bad thing so he needs to be punished" type of view. Maybe some type of "community service" punishment that can be done that also lessens the jailed time if completed, so they can choose between paying the bail or serving the time or do community service? Possibly even a way that they could "escape" the confines of the actual jail cell but then still walk around being unable to use abilities and unable to interact with objects until the end of their sentence? I'm not sure.
This is just what I can think of in the moment. Just my efforts to try to keep this thread on track. Now back to the game.
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@Hilgard said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
I thought it was weird that you were singling Nekrage out when there was someone else doing the exact same thing so I did some snooping.
Turns out you were attacking him on the Discord server yesterday lol. Seems like you have a horse in this race.
I think we can have a discussion without your childish behavior. Sound like a good plan?
I don't think Nekrage calling people morons, and worse in this thread after Prometheus asked people to be civil is an unwarranted criticism.
I'm not here for the toxicity. My discord interaction with him had nothing to do with my response here.
The fact that you are defending that sort of behavior out of him leads me to believe you have a horse in this race.
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@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Hilgard said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
I thought it was weird that you were singling Nekrage out when there was someone else doing the exact same thing so I did some snooping.
Turns out you were attacking him on the Discord server yesterday lol. Seems like you have a horse in this race.
I think we can have a discussion without your childish behavior. Sound like a good plan?
I don't think Nekrage calling people morons, and worse in this thread after Prometheus asked people to be civil is an unwarranted criticism.
I'm not here for the toxicity. My discord interaction with him had nothing to do with my response here.
The fact that you are defending that sort of behavior out of him leads me to believe you have a horse in this race.
There wasn't any name calling from my end till he decided to act like a child. I made a simple post and he declared my opinion null and void cause it didn't align with his own. Then when asked a few simple questions about the value of real time, he decided to resort to insults. Again, not my fault he acts like a child. Not for nothing, he made it very clear he doesn't believe in the devs vision for the game currently, I don't see why he warrants defense from anyone.
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@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Hilgard said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
I thought it was weird that you were singling Nekrage out when there was someone else doing the exact same thing so I did some snooping.
Turns out you were attacking him on the Discord server yesterday lol. Seems like you have a horse in this race.
I think we can have a discussion without your childish behavior. Sound like a good plan?
I don't think Nekrage calling people morons, and worse in this thread after Prometheus asked people to be civil is an unwarranted criticism.
I'm not here for the toxicity. My discord interaction with him had nothing to do with my response here.
The fact that you are defending that sort of behavior out of him leads me to believe you have a horse in this race.
So you admit that you are here to point fingers at him but not the other person doing the same thing?
You can see why people were calling you a hypocrite in game about an hour ago.
It's obvious you have underlying resentment for a particular player. You aren't here to help the community, you are here to push your own agenda.
@trik said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Hilgard said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@d3Sync said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
I thought it was weird that you were singling Nekrage out when there was someone else doing the exact same thing so I did some snooping.
Turns out you were attacking him on the Discord server yesterday lol. Seems like you have a horse in this race.
I think we can have a discussion without your childish behavior. Sound like a good plan?
I don't think Nekrage calling people morons, and worse in this thread after Prometheus asked people to be civil is an unwarranted criticism.
I'm not here for the toxicity. My discord interaction with him had nothing to do with my response here.
The fact that you are defending that sort of behavior out of him leads me to believe you have a horse in this race.
There wasn't any name calling from my end till he decided to act like a child. I made a simple post and he declared my opinion null and void cause it didn't align with his own. Then when asked a few simple questions about the value of real time, he decided to resort to insults. Again, not my fault he acts like a child.
Are we looking at the same thread? Lol.
Nekrage is quite literally one of the only players in this community that as consistently gone to bat for Fractured's health and has brought hundreds to this community. Yet you did...what? 11 FORUM POSTS IN 3 YEARS all in this thread.
Ya. A great addition to this community. Lol have a good night.
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@Hilgard said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
There wasn't any name calling from my end till he decided to act like a child. I made a simple post and he declared my opinion null and void cause it didn't align with his own. Then when asked a few simple questions about the value of real time, he decided to resort to insults. Again, not my fault he acts like a child.
Are we looking at the same thread? Lol.
Nekrage is quite literally one of the only players in this community that as consistently gone to bat for Fractured's health and has brought hundreds to this community. Yet you did...what? 11 FORUM POSTS IN 3 YEARS all in this thread.
Ya. A great addition to this community. Lol have a good night.
I'm sorry was my first post even directed at him. It was simple feedback and he decided to engage me and explain that it was useless and should be ignored. At which point the first unnecessary swear posted to word here was by him, when he felt going straight to a vulgar insult was warranted. It's comical you are here to call out someone for having a horse in a race when you obviously have your own as well. I'll post as much as I want when I want to participate and leave feedback. Also, a comical attack when you have a handful of posts yourself over the course of 10 months or so.
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You all seem to be doing it again. Let's all get back on track. No need for trying to defend anything, it just keeps the issue from being able to die out.
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@Ostaff HERE HERE
We're derailing this thread, first with insults, no with defending our own/others actions...
Let's get back to the point at hand.
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This is the second time now this thread derails.. As Prometheus stated in his opening post, please do not degenerate this discussion into the usual "you're a griefer" / "you're a carebear" quarrel. If you can't discuss this subject maturely, we'll have no choice but to lock this thread.
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@Harleyyelrah very good summary about the happenings and the state of the game, including the views of the players.
I think it maybe wasn't the right time to give free the features of flagging criminal & bounty hunting/jails. I also would have like to see, that militias would become more meaningful this test and that we can test the first steps of Sieges.
With a more meaningful Militia system, all PVPers would have been in Militias and would have found probably enough PVP all over the world, without bothering the PVE-only-player, as long they don't have their save place that is called Arboreus, where they can test all the PVE stuff in freedom. Don't get me wrong, even i maybe will play in release on Arboreus, i wouldn't do in test phases, since i am thinking it is important to test PVP, even it means, i am dying again and again.But well, we have now the criminal/jail system, so we need to deal with.
First step is to set us all by ourself in the position of the future Syndesia player, no matter if we are fullPVE or FullPVP. That means, we need to see on that feature with the eyes of the middle player who like both, but don't want to be in a ongoing fight wherever they walk.If i look with the eyes of such player to the thing, i see the Prison as a good possibility to bring justice against criminal activities. But there should be a criminal activity before i can bring justice. What do i care if the evil character has 100 or 10000 Karma, if he isn't doing anything bad at the moment? I want to have an evidence that he was stealing/destroying/killing lately.
Also i see the Prison as a good feature, that the Criminal gets this special fear, that he can get locked if he can be caught. For the kind of fear to probably get killed, some PVE Player will play on this planet, including me. So, why not giving the same "fear feature" to the PVP player who decide to be evil? If he can't deal with getting locked, he should stay on Tartaros later on
As for the length of prison time, i think we all (PVP and PVE player) agreeing, that it needs to get adjusted, especially the cause of time to spend. But as long it is just based on Karma, it will be unfair in many cases. Someone who murdered around to get 10000 Karma and was already sitting in jail and is doing nothing bad after it, should not get in jail again for the same, just because he still has this bad Karma. And i am also against to reset Karma, when someone was going into jail, because it would be highly abusable then. "Oh come, send me to the jail, i pay the 2k gold and will be almost good again."
As i suggested before, find another counter for the jail time, thats based on the actual performed criminal act. 1 kill of a good one = 1 jail time counter.So, if we fade out the heated argueing in this thread, we have already very good suggestions and feedback here. And if i take a closer view, nobody of them is against the prison itself, but against the actual reason. Well, i think, that can easy be fixed by Devs, since it isn't a totally change, but just adjustment and additional database entry and query of already existing values.
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Why not add a debuff for criminals that get caught.
The debuff would prevent them from pvping with players that aren't flagged for pvp but they could still pvp other players that have this debuff and also other players that are flagged. This could be up to 24 hours depending on their karma. This would prevent these players from "ganking" players that are just trying to quest/progress and instead would turn them on each other. Maybe even the sheriffs could be included in allowable targets during the debuff timer.
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the penalties are so steep at the moment, i would say if you want something that extends to 48 hours add to it. for instance someone had said in game (cant remember who) that it would be nice instead of just teleporting to the jail why not have the sheriffs have to escort them to jail somehow. it gives the evil players a chance to make a group and rescue the captured player before they reach jail, or a jailbreak mechanic of some sort. currently the problem i have with it is that like many parts of the game currently it seems to come down to who can get the biggest zerg out, you got a bigger group of sheriffs than evil? they will trounce the opposition. sorry if the post is messy, been a long shift.
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@Houngar
Ok, make it so that cops have to escort criminals to prison.
Then make it so that criminals have to escort their prey to specified 'victimization' locations.
That would defiantly be fair right?
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That would definitely cut down on "ganking"
However, it would also make fishing poles sky rocket in cost and jolly ranchers will be out of stock a lot.
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Let me preface this by saying that a lot of the complaints about this system is due to the fact that this is the only pvp system out right now when in fact it should be the least used pvp system in Syndesia.
I envision that Guild Wars and Sieges would be something that people use for pvp much more than the criminal system.
Now let's deep dive into the problem. We have both evil-aligned and good-aligned players complaining about the system. On one hand it's too punishing, and on the other, it's not punishing enough.
So who is right? The answer: both.
Let's first talk about why the criminal system is too punishing. I think it's obvious that people who have 0 karma or a really low amount of negative karma shouldn't be punished too harshly, the minimum gold shouldn't be 2k, it should definitely be lower since some people have negative karma just from knocking down players without even executing them.
But while that's a definite point to fix, it's not the main crux of the issue. The issue is that we're locking people out of the game. We should never lock people out of the game for playing a certain playstyle. You only lock people out of the game when they exploit/cheat. This is basically lumping the ganking/criminal playstyle as the same as cheaters/exploiters, which is a huge no no.
Like I mentioned in previous posts, just make them farm the gold if they cant pay, this way, they can still enjoy other content while essentially being locked out of all forms of PvP content until they pay their bail. Mind you, they can already do this with the current system, we're just now making it so that they have the option to do PvE content for gold if they don't have enough to pay their current bail, instead of just locking them out so that they'd play on their alts, or quit playing the game, till the bail time is over. This way we can also easily balance how strict the system is based on the bounty price. Obviously, when inflation happens and people start to hold more gold, the bounty system's prices should be adjusted accordingly.
So that solves the "too punishing" side of things. Now let's discuss why it's not "punishing enough". I think here @LonelyCookie raised a point, whereby the system only happens when a criminal is caught after the deed. There is nothing being done for the victim. This is why good-aligned players want a stricter system, because they feel like the only way they are protected is if the criminal system has an insane punishment system. This shouldn't actually be the case.
The problem right now relies on the bounty hunter system. We call it a bounty hunter system, but people who sign up for bounty hunters are actually called sheriffs. Sheriffs are not the same as bounty hunters. One is basically hunting criminals for personal gain, while the other is actually there to protect those who need protection. What good aligned players need is a protection system. So we don't need bounty hunters, we really just need sheriffs.
Basically what we need is a new tab on Socials that allow players to find Sheriffs to protect them when they are farming. Basically a tab that lists active Sheriffs who are online, and players can message Sheriffs asking for protection in return for a percentage of the loot they make for example.
This is a win-win situation for all. Players now get protection. Sheriffs and Criminals both get to PvP and have things more exciting.
Tl;DR : Criminal system is both too punishing and not giving enough protection. Solutions :
- Abolish jail time, make criminals farm for bail if they cant bail/dont have friends to bail them while being locked out of all pvp content
- Protection system that allows players to easily get in touch with Sheriffs to protect them while farming in return for some compensation if they so choose.
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Simple: the bounty hunter needs to move the prisoner with a wagon jail to the jail.
Same gold, same time in prison, same karma system.
