The PvE vs PvP Thread
-
@vengu said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
Do you really think a Demon is going to chase a Beastman ganker all the way to Arboreus? The Demon would have to find a way to travel to Arboreus, survive the hostile environment on Arboreus and hope that his target isn't hiding in one of the PvE zones just to take revenge on the ganker. I doubt that's something that's going to happen frequently. Maybe if a Beastman guild harasses Demons we will see a counter assault against that guild, but personal vendettas are already pretty much impossible with the current system.
I think and I hope that killing players will influence the Alignments (escept during wars). If good alignment players will go just for kills thay should drop time by time to evil.
-
(at)finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)The purpose of the moba is to win the match and destroy the core. It's not a rush on who get's more kills.
So, a kill in a MOBA is not rewarding? My point was, the PvP enthusiast would get the same and a better (more) reward, which leaves a lacking experience in your rule-set PvP Fractured and hence likely no Demons (they'd play different games instead, or give them a reason not to?).
(at)finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)A Demon can kill demons. If you need resources just go on arboreus grind your resources get your gear and then get back on Tartaros.
That still doesn't display any benefit of choosing to play as demon in your Fracture rule-set? Every other of your suggested races can do the same, but with less risk involved?
(at)finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)i'm suggesting solution for both sides
I don't see the solution you're offering for competitive, risk-vs-reward PvP players, that's what I'm trying to point out.
(at)finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)None of the PvPers suggested something to let PvErs play safely
That entirely depends on what you consider a viable, valid solution. If all Beastman team up and instantly repel any Demon attack, then all Beastman can play safely. The difference is that they have to work for an achievement. And that said, PvE doesn't automatically include absolute PvP safety (I know it does for some people, but not for every 'PvE player'). For a lot of them it's enough if PvP is tricky and infrequent in their 'PvE environment'.
(at)finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)@tulukaruk said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
Because just as @Finland said if the game isn't fun for PvE crowd we'll have at least one empty planet and the game will die quickly.
That's a fair point. But if the game isn't fun for the PvP crowd, you have at least one empty planet as well and I dare not take any forecast on the game's long-term financial stability, since a small indie team has a hard time competing with the triple A companies content and graphic-wise. My point was more like, if you set up rules so that playing a Demon only has drawbacks and no benefits, wouldn't it be better to not have Demons at all and focus on the other content instead?
@vengu said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)Do you really think a Demon is going to chase a Beastman ganker all the way to Arboreus?
I certainly would (try). It's a difficult challenge, so if I accomplish that, I get all the 'bragging rights'? A wise man once said, if everybody's a hero, then nobody is. Or in other terms, if you don't have the chance to do something out of the standard, then there's no room for really great experience and story that is going to be remembered (I don't recall how I killed my thousandths dragon, but I certainly recall how I lured a group of murderers into a one way with a point of no return, where they found themselves confronted with a group of people).
@vengu said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)I doubt that's something that's going to happen frequently.
The point is that it is possible. The difference between unlikely/difficult and flat out impossible can make a world.
-
@logain said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
You can summon me ;). Everyone is doing so there's no point for you to lose time on edit the name. When I said the "don0t summon me", it was just because I wanted to stay out of discussions.So, a kill in a MOBA is not rewarding? My point was, the PvP enthusiast would get the same and a better (more) reward, which leaves a lacking experience in your rule-set PvP Fractured and hence likely no Demons (they'd play different games instead, or give them a reason not to?).
Dunno I play MOBA to win the match and scale up the MMR stats/ranking.
That still doesn't display any benefit of choosing to play as demon in your Fracture rule-set? Every other of your suggested races can do the same, but with less risk involved?
PvPers should enjoy the risk is not fair to ask a PvEr to enjoy the same risk if he does not like it. If everyone would go on Arboreus (of my view) well it makes me to be right and that most players want to play safely.
I don't see the solution you're offering for competitive, risk-vs-reward PvP players, that's what I'm trying to point out.
What kind of reward do you want? And I really think that givin free kills everywere is rewarding for many. You are still not suggesting something to play safely.
That entirely depends on what you consider a viable, valid solution. If all Beastman team up and instantly repel any Demon attack, then all Beastman can play safely. The difference is that they have to work for an achievement. And that said, PvE doesn't automatically include absolute PvP safety (I know it does for some people, but not for every 'PvE player'). For a lot of them it's enough if PvP is tricky and infrequent in their 'PvE environment'.
Well you can suggest something and we can discuss.
That's a fair point. But if the game isn't fun for the PvP crowd, you have at least one empty planet as well and I dare not take any forecast on the game's long-term financial stability, since a small indie team has a hard time competing with the triple A companies content and graphic-wise. My point was more like, if you set up rules so that playing a Demon only has drawbacks and no benefits, wouldn't it be better to not have Demons at all and focus on the other content instead?
Why? I don't see why demons can't not go out on Tartaros and keeps killing like a deathmatch FPS. It's time to tell us your benefit thingy.
I certainly would (try). It's a difficult challenge, so if I accomplish that, I get all the 'bragging rights'? A wise man once said, if everybody's a hero, then nobody is. Or in other terms, if you don't have the chance to do something out of the standard, then there's no room for really great experience and story that is going to be remembered (I don't recall how I killed my thousandths dragon, but I certainly recall how I lured a group of murderers into a one way with a point of no return, where they found themselves confronted with a group of people).
The main purpose seems to kill beast.
The point is that it is possible. The difference between unlikely/difficult and flat out impossible can make a world.
Will be hard and not on the whole planet but let's wait for the next spotlight.
-
@logain I do hope that you're not saying that allowing PvP players to murder PvE players at will is the only way to make it fun for them as that's what we were talking about
There are 2 planets that are PvP oriented. Why trying to make the 3rd one least PvP possible is that bad of an idea in a game that's advertised as both PvP and PvE oriented?
-
@tulukaruk said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@jetah, @Phaethonas, @EvolGrinZ devs are saying that PvE players will be able to enjoy this game. While I have my doubts just like you let's hope for the best
Because just as @Finland said if the game isn't fun for PvE crowd we'll have at least one empty planet and the game will die quickly.And I will say for Nth time that the PvE crowd are not consisted of (just) care bears. As such, PvE players may enjoy a demon invasion at the beast planet, whether because they won't mind defending themselves or because after 1-2 days, when the invasion has ended, they will have to rebuilt. Rebuilding their cities will give them a sense of purpose, which otherwise may not exist, cause after you have made an entire city what else is there to do?
-
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
PvE players will be important. They generally will be the ones crafting weapons and armor, or growing and making food for everyone.
If PvP like to gank the PvE players the PvE players could use counter attack by just making all their stuff 5 times as expensive for everyone to buy
PvE players should not be confused with crafters. Gathering, mining, harvesting, processing, crafting and all those "professions" or however each game calls them are not pve gameplay as there is no "vs" part to begin with.
Sure, I suppose if someone is making an armor that armor may have an animal skin on it (or be made with it) and this animal skin may come from a boar or a bear that the crafter can kill. But mostly crafting isn't associated with this act, which by the way may be skipped altogether. Also, when we are talking about "pve" we mostly mean dungeons (open world and instanced), raids, open world bosses and the like. Lastly, as a demon pvper nothing stops me from killing a beastkin and raid and pillage his/her farm. Then I get everything I can carry on me and go to the demon planet and sell those for x10 of what they are worth at beast planet.
All that said, sure I get what you mean; PvE players and crafters don't appreciate being ganked and measures should be implemented from being ganked. But "ganked" has a meaning here and it is not "I killed you once" neither is "I am here now pillaging these farms". The later two are "non-ganked" pvp gameplay that Fractured will have. So, if I am a demon that is invading the beast planet and I am at your farm and I kill you, I am not ganking you. If you know that I am there and you keep coming, and I keep killing you, it still isn't ganking. Ganking would be if I would hunt you, pay no attention at anything else around me, find you everywhere you go (and try to hide) and keep killing you. Ganking would be me spawn camping lowbies and so on. If you want to return to your farm, then wait for me to pillage it and leave. But if you have 20 tons of wheat and I have carried 1 ton with me, be advised that I may return for the remaining 19 tons. So if I find you there when I come again to pick another ton of wheat? I will kill you and it won't be ganking.
Fractured seems to discourage ganking without discouraging pvp as well, which is what both pvpers and non-pvpers (pvers + crafters) want. It is confirmed that it will be difficult for a demon to invade the beast planet in the first place. It is also confirmed that a demon won't be able to stay indefinitely at the demon planet. It is confirmed that a demon will be weaker at the beast planet and thus an easier target for the non pvper beastkin. And lastly, it has been confirmed that the beast planet will have safe zones, for the beastkin to run to if they don't want to fight.
So, unless you are a care bear, Fractured's systems will be just fine for you. If you are a care bear, then Fractured is not the game you are looking for, sorry.
Ganking in my book means killing anyone you know who can not defend him/her-self.
They also mentioned the homes on Arboreus can not be pillaged or raided, so you won't be able to take all my stuff.And I seen it go wrong in so many games who tried to mix PvE and PvP together in a single world. Pretty much always ended up in the PvP players bullying the PvE players and killing them over and over until the PvE players just stopped playing. Then the PvP players got bored, because they didn't have nice easy targets anymore and an easy way to get resources, so they left too and you have yourself a dead game.
Would be a shame to see that happen to this game, and reading comments from the PvP players, I fear it's exactly what is going to happen unless the developers put some proper defenses in the game for the PvE players.When the demon will be having debuffs and the beastkin won't, when both will be able to carry weapons, your definition of ganking won't apply.
As simple as that.
It depends on how big the debuff is going to be. If the evil alignment gives a 10% debuff, it won't matter much at all.
Even a 25% debuff wouldn't matter much for a battle hardened PvP player attacking a defenseless farmer.Who said anything about a defenseless farmer? Beastkin can carry weapons. If they don't like to pvp at all, even in the context of defending themselves, they can run and hide in the safe zones. And if they don't like that either they can log out for a couple of days, during which demons will be in their planet. If they still don't like that? Then they don't like Fractured's concept.
It is silly to go to a game's forum and ask to make an entirely different game than the one the devs want to make.
-
@phaethonas players that want PvPvE will have that on Syndesia. Beastman that want more PvP will most probably move there as well. About defenseless farmers - pure PvE player usually fares very badly in PvP that in every game I played so far works a bit differently then PvE and fighting vs AI is different then fighting against human.
-
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@tulukaruk said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@jetah, @Phaethonas, @EvolGrinZ devs are saying that PvE players will be able to enjoy this game. While I have my doubts just like you let's hope for the best
Because just as @Finland said if the game isn't fun for PvE crowd we'll have at least one empty planet and the game will die quickly.And I will say for Nth time that the PvE crowd are not consisted of (just) care bears. As such, PvE players may enjoy a demon invasion at the beast planet, whether because they won't mind defending themselves or because after 1-2 days, when the invasion has ended, they will have to rebuilt. Rebuilding their cities will give them a sense of purpose, which otherwise may not exist, cause after you have made an entire city what else is there to do?
You don't understand Fractured at all. Invasions won't last for days, nor will you be able to indiscriminately destroy every building owned by other players, at least not on Arboreus. You're still under the assumption you can steamroll Arboreus and destroy everything you see.
Also, some people take great pride in building and decorating their buildings and don't want it to be destroyed by a bunch of bullies.
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
Who said anything about a defenseless farmer? Beastkin can carry weapons. If they don't like to pvp at all, even in the context of defending themselves, they can run and hide in the safe zones. And if they don't like that either they can log out for a couple of days, during which demons will be in their planet. If they still don't like that? Then they don't like Fractured's concept.
It is silly to go to a game's forum and ask to make an entirely different game than the one the devs want to make.
You don't understand Fractured's concept at all yet you act like you're an expert.
-
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
PvE players will be important. They generally will be the ones crafting weapons and armor, or growing and making food for everyone.
If PvP like to gank the PvE players the PvE players could use counter attack by just making all their stuff 5 times as expensive for everyone to buyPvE players should not be confused with crafters. Gathering, mining, harvesting, processing, crafting and all those "professions" or however each game calls them are not pve gameplay as there is no "vs" part to begin with.
Sure, I suppose if someone is making an armor that armor may have an animal skin on it (or be made with it) and this animal skin may come from a boar or a bear that the crafter can kill. But mostly crafting isn't associated with this act, which by the way may be skipped altogether. Also, when we are talking about "pve" we mostly mean dungeons (open world and instanced), raids, open world bosses and the like. Lastly, as a demon pvper nothing stops me from killing a beastkin and raid and pillage his/her farm. Then I get everything I can carry on me and go to the demon planet and sell those for x10 of what they are worth at beast planet.
All that said, sure I get what you mean; PvE players and crafters don't appreciate being ganked and measures should be implemented from being ganked. But "ganked" has a meaning here and it is not "I killed you once" neither is "I am here now pillaging these farms". The later two are "non-ganked" pvp gameplay that Fractured will have. So, if I am a demon that is invading the beast planet and I am at your farm and I kill you, I am not ganking you. If you know that I am there and you keep coming, and I keep killing you, it still isn't ganking. Ganking would be if I would hunt you, pay no attention at anything else around me, find you everywhere you go (and try to hide) and keep killing you. Ganking would be me spawn camping lowbies and so on. If you want to return to your farm, then wait for me to pillage it and leave. But if you have 20 tons of wheat and I have carried 1 ton with me, be advised that I may return for the remaining 19 tons. So if I find you there when I come again to pick another ton of wheat? I will kill you and it won't be ganking.
Fractured seems to discourage ganking without discouraging pvp as well, which is what both pvpers and non-pvpers (pvers + crafters) want. It is confirmed that it will be difficult for a demon to invade the beast planet in the first place. It is also confirmed that a demon won't be able to stay indefinitely at the demon planet. It is confirmed that a demon will be weaker at the beast planet and thus an easier target for the non pvper beastkin. And lastly, it has been confirmed that the beast planet will have safe zones, for the beastkin to run to if they don't want to fight.
So, unless you are a care bear, Fractured's systems will be just fine for you. If you are a care bear, then Fractured is not the game you are looking for, sorry.
Ganking in my book means killing anyone you know who can not defend him/her-self.
They also mentioned the homes on Arboreus can not be pillaged or raided, so you won't be able to take all my stuff.And I seen it go wrong in so many games who tried to mix PvE and PvP together in a single world. Pretty much always ended up in the PvP players bullying the PvE players and killing them over and over until the PvE players just stopped playing. Then the PvP players got bored, because they didn't have nice easy targets anymore and an easy way to get resources, so they left too and you have yourself a dead game.
Would be a shame to see that happen to this game, and reading comments from the PvP players, I fear it's exactly what is going to happen unless the developers put some proper defenses in the game for the PvE players.When the demon will be having debuffs and the beastkin won't, when both will be able to carry weapons, your definition of ganking won't apply.
As simple as that.
It depends on how big the debuff is going to be. If the evil alignment gives a 10% debuff, it won't matter much at all.
Even a 25% debuff wouldn't matter much for a battle hardened PvP player attacking a defenseless farmer.Who said anything about a defenseless farmer? Beastkin can carry weapons. If they don't like to pvp at all, even in the context of defending themselves, they can run and hide in the safe zones. And if they don't like that either they can log out for a couple of days, during which demons will be in their planet. If they still don't like that? Then they don't like Fractured's concept.
It is silly to go to a game's forum and ask to make an entirely different game than the one the devs want to make.
You have not understand how the game is going to be, not us.
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@tulukaruk said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@jetah, @Phaethonas, @EvolGrinZ devs are saying that PvE players will be able to enjoy this game. While I have my doubts just like you let's hope for the best
Because just as @Finland said if the game isn't fun for PvE crowd we'll have at least one empty planet and the game will die quickly.And I will say for Nth time that the PvE crowd are not consisted of (just) care bears. As such, PvE players may enjoy a demon invasion at the beast planet, whether because they won't mind defending themselves or because after 1-2 days, when the invasion has ended, they will have to rebuilt. Rebuilding their cities will give them a sense of purpose, which otherwise may not exist, cause after you have made an entire city what else is there to do?
Devs said already that you can't destroy buildings on Arboreus. Accept it.
-
The say I see it.
Beastkin can fight. they'll have all the tools the humans and demons will have with regard to pvp and defending themselves. they can even take the portal to the demon world and raid just as well we demons raiding them.
to think that every beastkin is there to have a 'carebear' moment is wrong and I don't believe I've said that. I know there will be beastkin that will stand guard against the invasion and those are the ones I want to attack. IF there is no one there to defend the beastkin then i will attack anyone I see in hopes of getting some type of resistance.
to me that is what this game is about. the demons are pissed and take that out on humans and beastkin alike.
-
@logain said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
Ok, let's assume I'm stumbling upon your advertising of Fractured with your rule-set and I think the game's generally interesting/appealing to me, how would you pitch the PvP aspect of your rule-set, so I'd bail in and pledge on the Kickstarter?
I, as a hypothetical PvP-player, seem to be getting the short end of the stick in this rule-set just about everywhere, despite being the most competitive sort of player.
As a demon on Tartaros, I take the full risk but have no reward, everybody (Demons, Humans and Beastman) can come and kill me on sight, but I, on the other hand, can not even take my revenge on the Beastman. This means, I am hard pressed to keep my equipment and all of my competition can enjoy regaining any loss in their save spot quick and easy, which leads to a downwards spiral for me (I keep loosing they keep gaining 'progress').
I have to be on my toes and 'account' for hostile activities whenever I go to hunt, leading to a slower progress (or a higher risk of loss), whereas the Beastman/Human can Min-Max their PvE skill/equipment time, leading to an even bigger gap.
Even worse, a group of Beastman could come, kill me, go back to Arboreus and taunt me with no possible means for me to defend myself from their evil words.It seems I'd be better off playing a MOBA or FPS, where PvP is a main selling point and there's a reward for any risk I'm taking, then to pledge for PvP in your rule-set of Fractured, where I have all risk and no reward? What am I missing that would make me happy?
Well, you getting to PvP anyone and anything you see if your choice and your reward. Thats the playstyle you chose, just as someone who prefers PvE chooses a playstyle. If you would rather not have that, then dont pick that playstyle? I dont see why its so hard for people to get that what @finland @EvolGrinZ are saying is that you get YOUR playstyle of a FFA on your planet and even to the human planet with some restrictions. But let them have their non pvp planet just like you have your pvp planet. And if you're just worried about them not risking much as you well have a debuff for beastkin on tartaros just as you have one for evil aligned on Arborus.
-
@miffi said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
Well, you getting to PvP anyone and anything you see if your choice and your reward. Thats the playstyle you chose, just as someone who prefers PvE chooses a playstyle. If you would rather not have that, then dont pick that playstyle? I dont see why its so hard for people to get that what @finland @EvolGrinZ are saying is that you get YOUR playstyle of a FFA on your planet and even to the human planet with some restrictions. But let them have their non pvp planet just like you have your pvp planet. And if you're just worried about them not risking much as you well have a debuff for beastkin on tartaros just as you have one for evil aligned on Arborus.
I don't expect to see many beastkin invading demons. that isn't their playstyle. most people that chose beastkin will be very similar to finland, many without the desire to guard their lands.
the human planet might not allow full pvp though. we already know there are safe areas on arboreus. so actually a demon doesn't have their free choice of pvp everywhere.
I will say, though, that this game will be very interesting in how they handle pvp, pve and pvx.
-
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
PvE players will be important. They generally will be the ones crafting weapons and armor, or growing and making food for everyone.
If PvP like to gank the PvE players the PvE players could use counter attack by just making all their stuff 5 times as expensive for everyone to buyPvE players should not be confused with crafters. Gathering, mining, harvesting, processing, crafting and all those "professions" or however each game calls them are not pve gameplay as there is no "vs" part to begin with.
Sure, I suppose if someone is making an armor that armor may have an animal skin on it (or be made with it) and this animal skin may come from a boar or a bear that the crafter can kill. But mostly crafting isn't associated with this act, which by the way may be skipped altogether. Also, when we are talking about "pve" we mostly mean dungeons (open world and instanced), raids, open world bosses and the like. Lastly, as a demon pvper nothing stops me from killing a beastkin and raid and pillage his/her farm. Then I get everything I can carry on me and go to the demon planet and sell those for x10 of what they are worth at beast planet.
All that said, sure I get what you mean; PvE players and crafters don't appreciate being ganked and measures should be implemented from being ganked. But "ganked" has a meaning here and it is not "I killed you once" neither is "I am here now pillaging these farms". The later two are "non-ganked" pvp gameplay that Fractured will have. So, if I am a demon that is invading the beast planet and I am at your farm and I kill you, I am not ganking you. If you know that I am there and you keep coming, and I keep killing you, it still isn't ganking. Ganking would be if I would hunt you, pay no attention at anything else around me, find you everywhere you go (and try to hide) and keep killing you. Ganking would be me spawn camping lowbies and so on. If you want to return to your farm, then wait for me to pillage it and leave. But if you have 20 tons of wheat and I have carried 1 ton with me, be advised that I may return for the remaining 19 tons. So if I find you there when I come again to pick another ton of wheat? I will kill you and it won't be ganking.
Fractured seems to discourage ganking without discouraging pvp as well, which is what both pvpers and non-pvpers (pvers + crafters) want. It is confirmed that it will be difficult for a demon to invade the beast planet in the first place. It is also confirmed that a demon won't be able to stay indefinitely at the demon planet. It is confirmed that a demon will be weaker at the beast planet and thus an easier target for the non pvper beastkin. And lastly, it has been confirmed that the beast planet will have safe zones, for the beastkin to run to if they don't want to fight.
So, unless you are a care bear, Fractured's systems will be just fine for you. If you are a care bear, then Fractured is not the game you are looking for, sorry.
Ganking in my book means killing anyone you know who can not defend him/her-self.
They also mentioned the homes on Arboreus can not be pillaged or raided, so you won't be able to take all my stuff.And I seen it go wrong in so many games who tried to mix PvE and PvP together in a single world. Pretty much always ended up in the PvP players bullying the PvE players and killing them over and over until the PvE players just stopped playing. Then the PvP players got bored, because they didn't have nice easy targets anymore and an easy way to get resources, so they left too and you have yourself a dead game.
Would be a shame to see that happen to this game, and reading comments from the PvP players, I fear it's exactly what is going to happen unless the developers put some proper defenses in the game for the PvE players.When the demon will be having debuffs and the beastkin won't, when both will be able to carry weapons, your definition of ganking won't apply.
As simple as that.
It depends on how big the debuff is going to be. If the evil alignment gives a 10% debuff, it won't matter much at all.
Even a 25% debuff wouldn't matter much for a battle hardened PvP player attacking a defenseless farmer.Who said anything about a defenseless farmer? Beastkin can carry weapons. If they don't like to pvp at all, even in the context of defending themselves, they can run and hide in the safe zones. And if they don't like that either they can log out for a couple of days, during which demons will be in their planet. If they still don't like that? Then they don't like Fractured's concept.
It is silly to go to a game's forum and ask to make an entirely different game than the one the devs want to make.
Defenseless farmer as in a PvE player with the focus skill for his farming and gathering etc. vs a battle hardened PvP player who has full focus on skills to kill other people.
That's like a 12 year old girl with a lollipop fighting Bruce Lee. Not even close to being a fair match.The best way to describe a PvE player in general is to compare it with an introvert. Most of the time we just want to be by ourselves and do our things without interacting with anyone. But at times we enjoy engaging with others for dungeons or maybe even PvP.
Of course, this doesn't count for everyone, but it sure describes me as a player.
-
@evolgrinz I think it's more like marathon runner that suddenly have to compete with a sprinter
They're both good runners just different type.
-
@finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)Dunno I play MOBA to win the match and scale up the MMR stats/ranking.
I've got to say that most MOBA players seem to enjoy scoring a kill, judging from what feelings are displayed verbally and visually in streams/videos.
@finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)PvPers should enjoy the risk(...)
They do, as long as there's a reward to the risk. People wouldn't 'gamble' (poker/betting/...) for money if they could lose money, but never win any and they wouldn't invest in stocks if they could go broke, but never turn in a profit. Being risk adverse doesn't mean you don't want a return.
@finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...) Well you can suggest something and we can discuss.
I did. I stated that beastman can play in absolute safety (under the currently suggested rule-set of difficult, but possible PvP on Arboreus) if they are willing to rally up and repel any invasion right away. In this thread, it has often been pointed out how easy and unfair a battle of unbalanced numbers (many vs few) would be and that there's a vastly greater number of PvE players compared to PvP players. If that is correct, Bestman can 'gank' Demons right at the Stargate can stay in absolute safety.
@finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...) I don't see why demons can't not go out on Tartaros and keeps killing like a deathmatch FPS. It's time to tell us your benefit thingy.
I was arguing your proposed rule-set, which hampers competitive players. The one thing competitive players dislike is being at a disadvantage, when the only reason for that disadvantage is that they like to be competitive (one wouldn't see an athlete racing at the Olympic games with weights?). With your proposed rule-set, things would be fair and work if there's no interaction and no exchange between the worlds (completely separate servers with no means to switch). That is not about 'benefit', but about fair terms.
@finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)Will be hard and not on the whole planet but let's wait for the next spotlight.
Again, I was arguing your proposed rule-set that suggested demons could not kill enemies on Arboreus at all ('Arboreus. PvP off.')
That's rather different from restricted and difficult. But I fully and wholeheartedly concur with you, I'm eagerly awaiting the spotlight which hopefully should detail out the developers vision and design choice.@tulukaruk said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)Why trying to make the 3rd one least PvP possible is that bad of an idea in a game that's advertised as both PvP and PvE oriented?
I was arguing the rule-set @Finland proposed earlier in the thread, namely 'Arboreus. PvP off.'
I am fine with PvP possible but difficult.@miffi said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
Well, you getting to PvP anyone and anything you see if your choice and your reward.
I repeat, I was arguing a proposed rule-set and under that rule-set ('Arboreus. PvP off.'), no, I can not PvP anyone and anything I see.
@miffi said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
(...)But let them have their non pvp planet just like you have your pvp planet. And if you're just worried about them not risking much as you well have a debuff for beastkin on tartaros just as you have one for evil aligned on Arborus.
If there is no exchange between worlds, I'm completely fine with a PvE only-non PvP server, just like it's done with a lot of games.
-
Oh man, still so many entries and i noticed it just yet.
I'm honest, i'm too lazy to read all entries now, maybe later in a silent moment.But i want to lay a question in the room.
Why versus?
I'm sure a good designed coexistence of both can attract PVErs same as PVPers.
Sure, PVErs have to live with a healthy fear and it would make their gaming life more interesting, if they have to be careful and have places where they can hide and are safe.
And sure too, PVPers would cry about these Carebears, who never come out for a good fight.
There are systems, where both can exist with each other and i wish the Fractured Devs will create a possibility for such a coexistence.
Maybe i should mention Salem the Game again, the game is all about the fear and you can do great PVP if you want, but at the same time, you can decide just to be a Carebear.
Me as a usual Carebear was it always important to follow the progress and success and loses of all the player made conflicts, even i almost never participted in PVP.
And yes, there was hard times for me and my home and my beloved fellowers. But that exactly made the game very interesting.
Going out to pick up materials made me always careful and i like it when i remember how scary it was to meet someone out of the safety. Is he friend or is he a bandit?
And then i'm remembering the moment when i was back in our town and i feeled the safety again and saw, what great place my beloved townies created together.
-
@logain said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
I've got to say that most MOBA players seem to enjoy scoring a kill, judging from what feelings are displayed verbally and visually in streams/videos.
Every competitive moba players care about MMR/Rank more than get a kill.
They do, as long as there's a reward to the risk. People wouldn't 'gamble' (poker/betting/...) for money if they could lose money, but never win any and they wouldn't invest in stocks if they could go broke, but never turn in a profit. Being risk adverse doesn't mean you don't want a return.
You can get your loot in Tartaros and Syndesia. So I don't accept the excuse I can't get a reward.
Anyway as I said many times and let's see what they plan to do. If will be easy to raid Arboreus I'm pretty sure that the pvers will leave the game and gankers/Pkers will follow later due the emptyness.
-
@finland said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
You can get your loot in Tartaros and Syndesia. So I don't accept the excuse I can't get a reward.
There might be a misunderstanding here. Maybe I can try to explain this better through asking a simple (non rhetorical) question. If you have $10000 and should invest that, which option would you take, a savings book, where your money is 100% safe and you get 1% interest, or stocks in a company, where you can lose the invested $10000 and get 1% interest?
(And please explain your choice)
-
@logain well if you don0t like to risk just play safe like care bears.. none is forcing you to play risky and none wants to force others to play risky.
-
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@phaethonas said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
@evolgrinz said in The PvE vs PvP Thread:
PvE players will be important. They generally will be the ones crafting weapons and armor, or growing and making food for everyone.
If PvP like to gank the PvE players the PvE players could use counter attack by just making all their stuff 5 times as expensive for everyone to buyPvE players should not be confused with crafters. Gathering, mining, harvesting, processing, crafting and all those "professions" or however each game calls them are not pve gameplay as there is no "vs" part to begin with.
Sure, I suppose if someone is making an armor that armor may have an animal skin on it (or be made with it) and this animal skin may come from a boar or a bear that the crafter can kill. But mostly crafting isn't associated with this act, which by the way may be skipped altogether. Also, when we are talking about "pve" we mostly mean dungeons (open world and instanced), raids, open world bosses and the like. Lastly, as a demon pvper nothing stops me from killing a beastkin and raid and pillage his/her farm. Then I get everything I can carry on me and go to the demon planet and sell those for x10 of what they are worth at beast planet.
All that said, sure I get what you mean; PvE players and crafters don't appreciate being ganked and measures should be implemented from being ganked. But "ganked" has a meaning here and it is not "I killed you once" neither is "I am here now pillaging these farms". The later two are "non-ganked" pvp gameplay that Fractured will have. So, if I am a demon that is invading the beast planet and I am at your farm and I kill you, I am not ganking you. If you know that I am there and you keep coming, and I keep killing you, it still isn't ganking. Ganking would be if I would hunt you, pay no attention at anything else around me, find you everywhere you go (and try to hide) and keep killing you. Ganking would be me spawn camping lowbies and so on. If you want to return to your farm, then wait for me to pillage it and leave. But if you have 20 tons of wheat and I have carried 1 ton with me, be advised that I may return for the remaining 19 tons. So if I find you there when I come again to pick another ton of wheat? I will kill you and it won't be ganking.
Fractured seems to discourage ganking without discouraging pvp as well, which is what both pvpers and non-pvpers (pvers + crafters) want. It is confirmed that it will be difficult for a demon to invade the beast planet in the first place. It is also confirmed that a demon won't be able to stay indefinitely at the demon planet. It is confirmed that a demon will be weaker at the beast planet and thus an easier target for the non pvper beastkin. And lastly, it has been confirmed that the beast planet will have safe zones, for the beastkin to run to if they don't want to fight.
So, unless you are a care bear, Fractured's systems will be just fine for you. If you are a care bear, then Fractured is not the game you are looking for, sorry.
Ganking in my book means killing anyone you know who can not defend him/her-self.
They also mentioned the homes on Arboreus can not be pillaged or raided, so you won't be able to take all my stuff.And I seen it go wrong in so many games who tried to mix PvE and PvP together in a single world. Pretty much always ended up in the PvP players bullying the PvE players and killing them over and over until the PvE players just stopped playing. Then the PvP players got bored, because they didn't have nice easy targets anymore and an easy way to get resources, so they left too and you have yourself a dead game.
Would be a shame to see that happen to this game, and reading comments from the PvP players, I fear it's exactly what is going to happen unless the developers put some proper defenses in the game for the PvE players.When the demon will be having debuffs and the beastkin won't, when both will be able to carry weapons, your definition of ganking won't apply.
As simple as that.
It depends on how big the debuff is going to be. If the evil alignment gives a 10% debuff, it won't matter much at all.
Even a 25% debuff wouldn't matter much for a battle hardened PvP player attacking a defenseless farmer.Who said anything about a defenseless farmer? Beastkin can carry weapons. If they don't like to pvp at all, even in the context of defending themselves, they can run and hide in the safe zones. And if they don't like that either they can log out for a couple of days, during which demons will be in their planet. If they still don't like that? Then they don't like Fractured's concept.
It is silly to go to a game's forum and ask to make an entirely different game than the one the devs want to make.
Defenseless farmer as in a PvE player with the focus skill for his farming and gathering etc. vs a battle hardened PvP player who has full focus on skills to kill other people.
That's like a 12 year old girl with a lollipop fighting Bruce Lee. Not even close to being a fair match.The best way to describe a PvE player in general is to compare it with an introvert. Most of the time we just want to be by ourselves and do our things without interacting with anyone. But at times we enjoy engaging with others for dungeons or maybe even PvP.
Of course, this doesn't count for everyone, but it sure describes me as a player.I will say for Nth time;
-
not all pve players are care bears.
-
PvE players will be able to have weapons/armor. That, alongside the fact that the demon/evil human will have a ton of debuffs, will close part of the gap between the two. Maybe even the pve player will have an advantage!
-
IF the PvE player doesn't want to fight, he/she can run and/or hide.
-
Fractured will be an open world game. As far as we know there won't be instanced pve, let alone instanced pvp.
As such, I don't understand what people are doing here when they disagree with core concepts/features of the game.
-
