Will there be a way to change your Attributes?
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Your intelligence is changing, your wisdom is changing, your strength is changing. We, as humans, are always changing. If we sit too long our strength lowers, if we study our intelligence increases. The game should reflect that. To say your attributes are permanent will allow people to min-max and a meta will be formed. With dynamic, even if it takes a month to change over, we can break that.
I love both melee and ranged. but if i'm playing the alpha or beta and i see one is becoming op then i'll likely roll that for release. but if DS nerfs the abilities then i do want to change them over time. (which is what you want as well.
I agree that we shouldn't get an attribute respect item (unless the attributes and skills change so much that it's required). Maybe one of the post in here that suggest we all start at 10 and as we use abilities the numbers change.
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@finland said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
You must be able to change you attibutes due the fact that you have no clue about what kind of spell you will discover in the nest hour/day/week/month/year. this means that you can re-roll a play style based on the spell you lernt so far
Totally agree, you learn some stuff, you get really exited of the idea of a new build, want to start theorycrafting, but the stats you picked when you joined the game are in your way... reroll and explore all again just to try out a new build??? No way... but your idea keeps nagging at you
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@benseine said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I'm even okay to add that option to the cashshop. All need to choose it before they play the game, so once you learn stuff you realized you could have picked better.
Hell no
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I love how this thread is an actual discussion and not just stupidly arguing for permance or a specific game mechanic they like but actually taking the time to respond to others and defend their ideas.
A slow change over time sounds tge best to me. It will be difficult to balance consequences with freedom, but if done well could be an absolutely wonderful part of the game.
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@morridin said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I love how this thread is an actual discussion and not just stupidly arguing for permance or a specific game mechanic they like but actually taking the time to respond to others and defend their ideas.
yeah it's quite nice. no name calling, trolling or fits being tossed. Sure we have people that disagree but they aren't trying to do each others' mother.
@morridin said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
A slow change over time sounds tge best to me. It will be difficult to balance consequences with freedom, but if done well could be an absolutely wonderful part of the game.
+1
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I have some thoughts about something that could be implemented for people who are worried about their starting attributes. I'm not sure how feasible this would be, but it is just an idea.
A sandbox test area could be implemented where you can adjust your characters stats within any starter parameters and toggle between races, talents etc, with a variety of basic weapons/spells to test out.
The people who want to take the time could test out some builds using this, or others who want to just jump straight into it can do so.
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@zab said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I have some thoughts about something that could be implemented for people who are worried about their starting attributes. I'm not sure how feasible this would be, but it is just an idea.
A sandbox test area could be implemented where you can adjust your characters stats within any starter parameters and toggle between races, talents etc, with a variety of basic weapons/spells to test out.
The people who want to take the time could test out some builds using this, or others who want to just jump straight into it can do so.
Nah, the easiest thing is the option to edit attributes. If you can reassign your attributes you will enjoy more the game based on what you will discover. Ofc not for free but a fee price like a symbolic price to reassign the attributes. Something cheap but symbolic just to avoid players respecing attribute billions time per day
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@kairosval said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
The philosophy you just gave us is directly contradicted by every single element of the game that is not the raw character attributes as well as by common sense. Do your Talents not matter because you can respec them easily? Does your gear not matter because you can change your clothes? Does the planet you're on not matter because you can go to another planet more-or-less freely depending on your race and alignment?
Of course that isn't how it works, and it doesn't apply to character attributes either.Turns out we actually agree about quite a lot, we're just using different words to do it.
Decisions are only interesting if they have consequences. A decision's consequences only apply until such a time as you can unmake that decision. So the impact of each decision is tied to the duration between making and unmaking each decision. The longer the duration, the greater the consequence, and the more interesting and important the decision becomes.
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So your hotbar selections do matter. But only until your next rest.
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Your gear selections do matter. But only until you lose, break, swap, or replace them.
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Your planet selection does matter. But only until you move to a different one.
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Your attribute selection matters. I believe current design is that a one-off respec ability will be offered early in a character's progression, after which it is permanent.
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Your talent progression matters. It is permanent.
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Your race selection matters always, it is permanent.
Listed in this way, we have a gradual rise from short-term to long-term durations for the decisions we will be making in the game. I don't think that this means the game design is contradicting itself. I think this is a way to have different mechanics that complement each other to lead to an interesting and compelling whole.
But perhaps the most key thing you've said is this part here:
And just like Talents have a limitation on how quick you can learn them, when you can respec, and when you can swap hotbar slots, stats should also have a limitation on when and how they can change so that players aren't ever-shifting slime-demon Mary Sues.
Exactly!
So it seems that this is where we agree: Decisions should have meaningful consequences. The faster a decision can be unmade, the less significant it's consequences. So there needs to be a duration between making a decision and unmaking a decision if that decision is going to be meaningful. We agree that such durations should be nonzero, and that some decisions should have longer or shorter durations than others.
What we disagree about is where that duration should max out. I prefer more permanence than you, because I am trying to maximize how meaningful the decisions are, and to create a sense of consistent identity for the character into which I will be dumping many hours of play time so that I can get invested in a sense of ownership over my character. You prefer the middle ground of not-trivially-changeable-but-also-not-permanent because that'll give you more flexibility to enjoy different playstyles down the track as your tastes and as the game itself gradually evolves.
I think that this is a reasonable disagreement, made in good faith, based on our different subjective preferences regarding what we both hope to enjoy from the game over our time playing it.
And I don't think that either side of our disagreement here is "completely stupid and bluntly contrary to every other aspect of not only this game's explicit design but good game design in general". I get that this is an internet forum and hyperbole is just par for the course. But even so, that's a little strong, don't you think?
The romantic concept of "yours tailored to you" is defined by adjustment over time.
So this brings us around to where I think there might be room for some compromise.
What I want to avoid is trivially rebuilding your entire character once an hour, or once a day, or once a week, or even once a month. I prefer permanence, and in response you've brought up adjustment over time.
Adjustment over time is not the same as a respec. And that's... Actually pretty interesting as a concept.
It reminds me of a MUD I used to play ages ago. Your attribute selection on character creation was essentially permanent. You couldn't even boost your attributes with gear: Gear could boost secondary statistics like skills or attack chance or damage or health. But not the underlying attributes that set everything up.
It was a humorous, satirical fantasy setting. One of the NPC merchants was a retrophrenologist. Phrenology in real life was a quack pesudoscience that suggested you could infer information about someone's personality from the lumps and depressions in someone's head and skull. So in the fantasy setting, the retrophrenologist's job was to change the shape of your skull to bring about a desired change in your character's attributes. With a hammer.
So you'd go in, pay a large sum of in-game currency, the NPC would wallop you with the hammer, dealing massive damage and applying a status debuff for a few hours. In exchange, you would transfer one point from a stat you no longer wanted, into a stat that you wanted to increase. And there was a time limit, something like only one retrophrenologist visit per day, or per week. Something like that.
Obviously, that specific implementation of this kind of mechanic would not fit the style and tone of Fractured.
However, this is what a gradual adjustment over time would look like. Not a full respec once a week, but a gradual shifting of points between abilities. Something like that would actually be fairly reasonable to me. I'd be happiest with something very slow - one point moved per real-time week - but that might be way too slow for you.
But regardless of where you or I would want to set the dial for rate-of-change-throttle, I think that something along these lines would be a little bit more interesting than just having a full attribute respec a week/month/year/whatever.
Thoughts?
I absolutely agree that choices should be meaningful. I remember playing the same MUD - wasn't it discworld? - and thinking very specifically ahead, which path to go and decisions to make.
Probably, it would be best to give new players a tutorial phase at the beginning of the game where they get to test some mechanics and even some first skills (different weapons, armours, spells working, crafts) without necessarily acquiring them just from 1 try, but to let them experience their choice in practice. You could make it a dream setting sent by their race's main god(s) of what could be, before the PC sets out to follow his/her path in the worlds.
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I like the ability to change attributes over time, lets take a month as an example. This means that if I decide to start as a dex based I can eventually, through game play, swap to intel based to cast spells. If I decided to try swords or axes my strength would increase. While switching my other attributes are being reduced. I'm relating this to RL. Anyone can start lifting weights or begin to jog to increase their physical body. They can study to increase their intelligence and wisdom. There are many college graduates which took most of their time studying and aren't fit, they couldn't run a marathon. after graduating they get the job they need and can start exercising to percapitate in that marathon.
another reason i want to change them is when an ability(s) or gear is nerfed I can switch without needing to reroll.
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@jetah INDEED! I really think that DS will add something to change attributes otherwise there's no point on the IDEA to have just ONE character that can do all. Players wants the best attributes for the best spell combo (build). If we don't get an option to reassign the attributes. The players will create a character for each kind of viable build.
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I really hope there's a way to change our attributes, and I like @Jedah's idea on how to do that. When I first heard about the Knowledge System, I was very exited about the prospect of traveling the worlds to collect all the available abilities. However, if I can't change my attributes, there's no point in collecting any abilities beyond the ones related to my attributes and the ones that provide utility. As I am a huge completionist, it would greatly reduce the content available to me. I believe I've said it before, limiting attributes like this goes against the design goal of the Knowledge System.
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I fear that if everyone is able to switch their attributes whenever they want, in a game with pvp and full loot, that the FotM will be too abundand. Everyone will roll it, till the next one. Make it a big deal to switch, like huge ammount of ingame cash, cashshop purchase or on a timer for several months or so.
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@benseine said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I fear that if everyone is able to switch their attributes whenever they want, in a game with pvp and full loot, that the FotM will be too abundand. Everyone will roll it, till the next one. Make it a big deal to switch, like huge ammount of ingame cash, cashshop purchase or on a timer for several months or so.
MMO > Is the same if you have all classes rolled up and you will play the most op class.
MOBA > Is like to play the most op heroes/champions. Meta changes and you change the herows/champions to stay on meta.
FPS > Is like play the most op weapon.Players like me that likes killing stuff around usually wants the best build/setup so it's needed (the option to reset attributes) by me.
I can remeber WoW at launch when none was able to reassign a talent. the only way was delete the char and make a new one. Hard core guilds were asking a screenshot of your talent tree and if you had 1 wrong talent your apply were rejected.
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@severinus said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I remember playing the same MUD - wasn't it discworld? - and thinking very specifically ahead, which path to go and decisions to make.
Yes! It was!
I could remember the mechanic, but not which MUD it was from.
Wow. That takes me back. Haven't played MUDs since I was in my early teens. Over half a lifetime ago.
Really liked their multiple-node tree-based skill distribution model too.
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@finland said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
@benseine said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I fear that if everyone is able to switch their attributes whenever they want, in a game with pvp and full loot, that the FotM will be too abundand. Everyone will roll it, till the next one. Make it a big deal to switch, like huge ammount of ingame cash, cashshop purchase or on a timer for several months or so.
MMO > Is the same if you have all classes rolled up and you will play the most op class.
MOBA > Is like to play the most op heroes/champions. Meta changes and you change the herows/champions to stay on meta.
FPS > Is like play the most op weapon.Players like me that likes killing stuff around usually wants the best build/setup so it's needed (the option to reset attributes) by me.
I can remeber WoW at launch when none was able to reassign a talent. the only way was delete the char and make a new one. Hard core guilds were asking a screenshot of your talent tree and if you had 1 wrong talent your apply were rejected.The WoW example is why it should be ingane.
The general mmo / mobo argument is in my opinion the reason it should come at a high cost.
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Several months of commitment is ridiculous. This is a game, not a girlfriend.
The primary reason to limit the rate of changing stats should be to prevent players from exploiting it in some kind of shape-shifting meta. Even 24 hours (of active play) would suffice for this in most cases and a week+ becomes prohibitive for players who can't spend more than an hour a day playing.
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@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
Several months of commitment is ridiculous. This is a game, not a girlfriend.
The primary reason to limit the rate of changing stats should be to prevent players from exploiting it in some kind of shape-shifting meta. Even 24 hours (of active play) would suffice for this in most cases and a week+ becomes prohibitive for players who can't spend more than an hour a day playing.
If a person can't spend the time to swap primary attributes then why do they need to swap at all? Usually those types will be happy with what they've chosen. Mostly those that play daily and for multiple hours will have a need to swap. Not to mention it's possible that a hour daily player won't have enough skills unlocked to warrant a swap. It'd be easier to reroll.
I'd still believe a month is a good time frame to swap primaries. A month of our time is equal to a year in game. That seems right to me.
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@jetah said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
If a person can't spend the time to swap primary attributes then why do they need to swap at all?
Circular logic; you're the one raising the bar on how much time is needed to qualify that condition.
I'd still believe a month is a good time frame to swap primaries. A month of our time is equal to a year in game. That seems right to me.
I don't care how much time it is in the game, I care that I in real life shouldn't have to make a long time investment to change pretend numbers. A month is longer than it would take to make a new character and get your Talents back.
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@fibs but a month might not be enough time to get all of your spells/abilities back.
for all we know we can't even change attributes. so you started with 17 intel but you like dex instead, you'd have to reroll with just playing 1h a day.
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@Jetah If most players can't manage consistently long hours in the game, that is only more reason to make all of the game features feasible in a shorter amount of time.
