Will there be a way to change your Attributes?
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@fibs That is true, but attributes are one of the only character parts that is set first at creation. Skills and takents are developed as you play the game, so I think it should be more difficult to reset attributes than skills.
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@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
@jetah Everything else in the game is founded on rapidly changing your character to fit changing situations; there's absolutely no reason stats should be the odd one out
I'm pretty sure campfires take a while to setup or you find a city or a village with a fire.
to me attributes should take a while to change.
@benseine said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
@jetah then you get Elder Scrolls or Darkfall things like auto attacking or botting to raise stats ingame
have only played eso; for a week, maybe two, never played darkfall.
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@jetah said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I'm pretty sure campfires take a while to setup or you find a city or a village with a fire.
Resting involves no forced waiting time – once you’ve made your decisions, just confirm them and your hero will be ready to go. Moreover, it will have recovered all of its Endurance, Life and Mana, and be cleansed of all negative status effect (besides long-term curses).
The only limitation is that Resting can only be done in a Safe Zone. It's this Safe Zone that may take a while to set up, if you're not near a city.
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@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
The only limitation is that Resting can only be done in a Safe Zone. It's this Safe Zone that may take a while to set up, if you're not near a city.
but of course they would lose all their strategic importance if you could have one at any time! That is why you can rest only in a safe location where your character can sit in front of a fire – be it your home, a friend’s mansion, a public tavern, or even a proper temporary camp.
that doesn't sound like it's a quick r-click flint-n-tender thing.
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@jetah said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
The only limitation is that Resting can only be done in a Safe Zone. It's this Safe Zone that may take a while to set up, if you're not near a city.
but of course they would lose all their strategic importance if you could have one at any time! That is why you can rest only in a safe location where your character can sit in front of a fire – be it your home, a friend’s mansion, a public tavern, or even a proper temporary camp.
that doesn't sound like it's a quick r-click flint-n-tender thing.
It also won't take you two fucking weeks to set up.
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it could be 30 minutes.
what @Morridin said about the current stats is they are permanent but we can increase them via gear, talents and consumables. This leads me to believe we won't have the ability to instantly change 20 str into 20 intel.
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The main issue here is that your attributes are one of the first things you pick, before you've even played the game. You have absolutely no idea what's going to work for you or what you're going to enjoy, but unlike other aspects of the game, you can't change them and that seems like a bad way to start players out. It also deosn't make a lot of sense. If I started out as a mage, but later started using a warhammer to solve all my problems, I WOULD get stronger and probably faster, so if I made the misatake of starting with 10 str, why would my character never get any better at wielding a warhammer?
There are lots of ways this can be solved, there's been some interesting ideas in this thread. I wouldn't focus too much at this point on how much time it takes to change things or set up a camp, the game isn't even in alpha, any numbers are completely arbitrary at this point and likely to change.
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It's easy the can make and addition to the rest so when you are elegible to change spell you should be able to reset the starting attributes (100 for demons and beasmen - 120 for humans). This way we'll be totaly free to swap from warrior stats+spell to a deep mage fully int and so on
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I think that you shouldn't pick starting stats at all. You start out with 10 in everything, the cap per stat and ease of raising stats is still per-race, but your stats change over time.
I would heavily prefer for the player to be able to set "goal stats" at any time and their character will gravitate towards those stats over time, though, rather than having to do x and avoid y in order to get the stats I wanted,
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@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I think that you shouldn't pick starting stats at all. You start out with 10 in everything, the cap per stat and ease of raising stats is still per-race, but your stats change over time.
I would heavily prefer for the player to be able to set "goal stats" at any time and their character will gravitate towards those stats over time, though, rather than having to do x and avoid y in order to get the stats I wanted,
I like this. I can't remember all of the games that required me to use attribute points before I knew what they did. The minor description wasn't helpful.
Using this a player could switch between skills and if they used them enough they'll become stronger over time. This blends well with the do stuff and your character develops.
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The A compilation of everything we know about Fractured thread links through to this:
@prometheus said in The knowledge system and cookie cutter builds.:
@Kris you'll likely get a few free stat respecs too, yes, but it's hard to tell right now exactly how many and when.
From memory (can't find the quote) I think it's been discussed that the devs don't want your attribute pick on character creation to be completely set in stone, to allow for a situation where a player learns more about how the game works and comes to regret their initial pick. The idea is to not force that player to throw their character away and have to start over to get a different attribute distribution.
However, the overall point of attribute distributions is that they're supposed to be permanent to make your character your character. The attribute distribution should be a decision that has consequences - because in the absence of consequences, the decision is kind of meaningless.
One of the reasons that I found Diablo III to be so boring was that it was way too easy to swap around a character build. In Diablo II my character was my character, and the decisions I made during progression had long term consequences. In Diablo III I could just exit combat, click a few buttons, swap out some gear, and presto-chango I had an entirely different character build. So my character was completely indistinguishable from the same character type played by any other player, so I wasn't invested in the character, so I wasn't invested in the game, and I'd get bored somewhere around Act III and stop playing.
So I like the idea that race, attributes and background will permanent* and impactful. If it's too easy to swap them out then the decisions aren't meaningful.
If anything I'd like the campfire system to be more restrictive than is currently planned... But I can acknowledge that I'm probably on the extreme end of the playerbase in terms of preferring permanence in all aspects of character progression, so I don't expect the devs to change their designs out just for little old me.
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@kairosval said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I'd get bored somewhere around Act III and stop playing.
If anything I'd like the campfire system to be more restrictive than is currently planned... But I can acknowledge that I'm probably on the extreme end of the playerbase in terms of preferring permanence in all aspects of character progression, so I don't expect the devs to change their designs out just for little old me.
vanilla act 3 was where it got really hard!
you can be as restrictive as you want with regards to the camp fire. You can ironman it as hard or easy as you want
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@jetah said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
@kairosval said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
I'd get bored somewhere around Act III and stop playing.
If anything I'd like the campfire system to be more restrictive than is currently planned... But I can acknowledge that I'm probably on the extreme end of the playerbase in terms of preferring permanence in all aspects of character progression, so I don't expect the devs to change their designs out just for little old me.
vanilla act 3 was where it got really hard!
you can be as restrictive as you want with regards to the camp fire. You can ironman it as hard or easy as you want
Yeah, I suspect I'll be pretty close to ironmanning it anyway. ^_^
I have a fairly restrictive min/max build in mind that'll make me really good at a small number of things. It'll be interesting to see how flexible I can be within that stat distribution within the release version of the ability system.
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oh, sounds interesting.
Only problem I have without adjustable attributes is most people will be setup for high magic, high melee or a balance. That seems like it'll be pretty stagnate.
Lets say ranged is op either archery or magic and you decided to be melee. you're stuck being bad unless you reroll or get on the forums and
whinepost concerns.With adjustable attributes you could be high melee then switch to high magic or switch from high dex to high str. if something is considered op everyone could be that until it's nerfed and then look for the next imba.
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@FibS @Morridin Saw an interesting way of altering stats in Life is Feudal. It was a little easy there but difficulty and timeframe could be increased depending on how long a process you want. You essentially desired which stats would increase and decrease. I believe it was only one of each at a time and as you performed certain activities the mechanic would proc. You could possibly mix this mechanic up with the 'praying to a god' one as to which stats are the ones to increase and decrease?
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Honestly, it would suck extremely if we don't have a decently simple way to change our attributes. A character will certainly be locked into certain types of builds depending on attributes chosen, pretty much negating the fact that Fractured wants to promote us to try new skills and test things out. If I invest in a character with full intelligence, why the heck would I even bother trying out sword swinging attacks? Might as well say there are classes in Fractured if it comes down to this.
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@kairosval said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
However, the overall point of attribute distributions is that they're supposed to be permanent to make your character your character. The attribute distribution should be a decision that has consequences - because in the absence of consequences, the decision is kind of meaningless.
Okay, stop right there. This is a pitfall that has killed a lot of games for me and I'd rather not see it happen here too. That pitfall is when the game is self-contradictory for the sake of some fallacious conceit or another.
The philosophy you just gave us is directly contradicted by every single element of the game that is not the raw character attributes as well as by common sense. Do your Talents not matter because you can respec them easily? Does your gear not matter because you can change your clothes? Does the planet you're on not matter because you can go to another planet more-or-less freely depending on your race and alignment?
Of course that isn't how it works, and it doesn't apply to character attributes either.
The romantic concept of "yours tailored to you" is defined by adjustment over time. Nobody is born out of the womb the exact person they want to be as an adult, and many people make mistakes, scrap ideas and make big changes to their plans.
I guarantee you the attributes I first pick for any character are not going to be the ones I want to keep even if I'm still making new characters years after the game's release, just like the Talents I first pick aren't going to be what I want to go with. It is absolutely necessary that players are able to change their stats just like they can change their Talents, for all of the exact same reasons.
And just like Talents have a limitation on how quick you can learn them, when you can respec, and when you can swap hotbar slots, stats should also have a limitation on when and how they can change so that players aren't ever-shifting slime-demon Mary Sues. But "basically never at all" is completely stupid and bluntly contrary to every other aspect of not only this game's explicit design but good game design in general.
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@chrightt said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
Honestly, it would suck extremely if we don't have a decently simple way to change our attributes. A character will certainly be locked into certain types of builds depending on attributes chosen, pretty much negating the fact that Fractured wants to promote us to try new skills and test things out. If I invest in a character with full intelligence, why the heck would I even bother trying out sword swinging attacks? Might as well say there are classes in Fractured if it comes down to this.
I agree. Without any way to change attributes, the game will boil down to STR/DEX/CON melee builds, DEX/PER ranged builds, INT caster builds and the occasional CHA Bard. It would practically be a class system. I hope the devs reconsider their stance on attribute respecs and allow us to change our attributes, even if it takes a long time to do so.
@FibS I agree with you as well. For a game that advertises its build freedom and respeccing as a major feature, it's weird that they would lock us into our attributes.
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@fibs said in Will there be a way to change your Attributes?:
The philosophy you just gave us is directly contradicted by every single element of the game that is not the raw character attributes as well as by common sense. Do your Talents not matter because you can respec them easily? Does your gear not matter because you can change your clothes? Does the planet you're on not matter because you can go to another planet more-or-less freely depending on your race and alignment?
Of course that isn't how it works, and it doesn't apply to character attributes either.Turns out we actually agree about quite a lot, we're just using different words to do it.
Decisions are only interesting if they have consequences. A decision's consequences only apply until such a time as you can unmake that decision. So the impact of each decision is tied to the duration between making and unmaking each decision. The longer the duration, the greater the consequence, and the more interesting and important the decision becomes.
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So your hotbar selections do matter. But only until your next rest.
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Your gear selections do matter. But only until you lose, break, swap, or replace them.
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Your planet selection does matter. But only until you move to a different one.
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Your attribute selection matters. I believe current design is that a one-off respec ability will be offered early in a character's progression, after which it is permanent.
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Your talent progression matters. It is permanent.
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Your race selection matters always, it is permanent.
Listed in this way, we have a gradual rise from short-term to long-term durations for the decisions we will be making in the game. I don't think that this means the game design is contradicting itself. I think this is a way to have different mechanics that complement each other to lead to an interesting and compelling whole.
But perhaps the most key thing you've said is this part here:
And just like Talents have a limitation on how quick you can learn them, when you can respec, and when you can swap hotbar slots, stats should also have a limitation on when and how they can change so that players aren't ever-shifting slime-demon Mary Sues.
Exactly!
So it seems that this is where we agree: Decisions should have meaningful consequences. The faster a decision can be unmade, the less significant it's consequences. So there needs to be a duration between making a decision and unmaking a decision if that decision is going to be meaningful. We agree that such durations should be nonzero, and that some decisions should have longer or shorter durations than others.
What we disagree about is where that duration should max out. I prefer more permanence than you, because I am trying to maximize how meaningful the decisions are, and to create a sense of consistent identity for the character into which I will be dumping many hours of play time so that I can get invested in a sense of ownership over my character. You prefer the middle ground of not-trivially-changeable-but-also-not-permanent because that'll give you more flexibility to enjoy different playstyles down the track as your tastes and as the game itself gradually evolves.
I think that this is a reasonable disagreement, made in good faith, based on our different subjective preferences regarding what we both hope to enjoy from the game over our time playing it.
And I don't think that either side of our disagreement here is "completely stupid and bluntly contrary to every other aspect of not only this game's explicit design but good game design in general". I get that this is an internet forum and hyperbole is just par for the course. But even so, that's a little strong, don't you think?
The romantic concept of "yours tailored to you" is defined by adjustment over time.
So this brings us around to where I think there might be room for some compromise.
What I want to avoid is trivially rebuilding your entire character once an hour, or once a day, or once a week, or even once a month. I prefer permanence, and in response you've brought up adjustment over time.
Adjustment over time is not the same as a respec. And that's... Actually pretty interesting as a concept.
It reminds me of a MUD I used to play ages ago. Your attribute selection on character creation was essentially permanent. You couldn't even boost your attributes with gear: Gear could boost secondary statistics like skills or attack chance or damage or health. But not the underlying attributes that set everything up.
It was a humorous, satirical fantasy setting. One of the NPC merchants was a retrophrenologist. Phrenology in real life was a quack pesudoscience that suggested you could infer information about someone's personality from the lumps and depressions in someone's head and skull. So in the fantasy setting, the retrophrenologist's job was to change the shape of your skull to bring about a desired change in your character's attributes. With a hammer.
So you'd go in, pay a large sum of in-game currency, the NPC would wallop you with the hammer, dealing massive damage and applying a status debuff for a few hours. In exchange, you would transfer one point from a stat you no longer wanted, into a stat that you wanted to increase. And there was a time limit, something like only one retrophrenologist visit per day, or per week. Something like that.
Obviously, that specific implementation of this kind of mechanic would not fit the style and tone of Fractured.
However, this is what a gradual adjustment over time would look like. Not a full respec once a week, but a gradual shifting of points between abilities. Something like that would actually be fairly reasonable to me. I'd be happiest with something very slow - one point moved per real-time week - but that might be way too slow for you.
But regardless of where you or I would want to set the dial for rate-of-change-throttle, I think that something along these lines would be a little bit more interesting than just having a full attribute respec a week/month/year/whatever.
Thoughts?
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You must be able to change you attibutes due the fact that you have no clue about what kind of spell you will discover in the nest hour/day/week/month/year. this means that you can re-roll a play style based on the spell you lernt so far
