Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL)


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    This picture I saw got me worried, do you agree the CD changes of 15/12/9 and DMG increase from 520/640/780 is too much?

    Damage per 60 sec at r1: 15CD+3CT is 18 sec. That is just 3 attacks in a minute a 520 dmg = 1560 per min

    Damage per 60 sec at r3: 9CD+3CT is 12 sec. That is 5 attacks in a minute a 780 dmg = 3900 per min

    That is an increase of 250% more damage!!!

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  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    mana stays the same so you'll be oom faster.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @jetah it's alot:

    Damage per 60 sec at r1: 15CD+3CT is 18 sec. That is just 3 attacks in a minute a 520 dmg = 1560 per min

    Damage per 60 sec at r3: 9CD+3CT is 12 sec. That is 5 attacks in a minute a 780 dmg = 3900 per min

    That is an increase of 250% more damage!!!


  • TF#5 - LEGATE

    @jetah I gotta agree. If the mana cost dropped, THEN I'd say it was a bit too much, but unless your amount of mana increases in proportion, I don't see an issue.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    not to mention these are still pre-alpha, actually internal testing, numbers and won't be the same at launch.

    120s / 15s (cooldown) = 8 cast for 960 mana doing 4,160 damage
    120s / 12s (cooldown) = 10 cast for 1,200 mana doing 6,400 damage
    120s / 9s (cooldown) = 13 cast for 1,560 mana doing 10,140 damage

    2 minute fight using almost double mana for over double damage. again these are pre-alpha or even internal testing numbers.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @jetah it's the matter of principle.

    If you are making a showcase skills for your game, then your showcase skills are already saying a lot about what direction you are heading at with your game.

    If aim of the game is horizontal progression (and that's largely marketed and promoted) then one does not make his "vertical showcase" skills with 250% power gap...

    That is at the very least a HUGE neglect...


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @warpuppy said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):

    @jetah I gotta agree. If the mana cost dropped, THEN I'd say it was a bit too much, but unless your amount of mana increases in proportion, I don't see an issue.

    Player A and player B have equal gear giving them both pool of 600 mana... (and for example 1000 HP pool).

    (new guy) Player A has R1 spell, (veteran) Player B has R3 spell. (They are supposed to be competitive).

    Spell (both r1 and r3) costs 120 mana, so both can cast it 5 times.


    Player A can dish out 520x5=2600 damange in 75 seconds (CDs)... and then goes OOM.
    Player B can dish out 780x5=3900 damange in 45 seconds (CDs)... and then goes OOM.

    Player B has done 1000 damage (taken all player As HP pool) in 11,5 seconds.
    Player B at that point has received less then ~400 damage from player A.

    (I'm averaging this, since obviously cool downs are fixed numbers and it will take bit longer but end result and comparison between player A and B TTK remains the same, player B having a lot faster TTK.)

    Player B is alive with 60% of his HP poll remaining.
    Player A is dead.

    This is full loot PvP MMO promoting horizontal progression and new players being competitive vs veterans.


    Who sees a problem with this? 😛


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    Reducing CD and scaling up damage is just inappropriate for horizontally marketed game (even if scaling would be low).

    This would be horizontal "ranking up" (an example):

    Axii's Sun Strike:
    (all ranks 120 mana cost, all ranks 15 sec CD, all ranks 520 damage)

    R1 ignores targets fire resistance
    R2 adds a slow effect to targets
    R3 never misses the targets - (hit chance based, not players aiming miss)

    (Higher rank does not include benefits of previous ranks, each rank effect only works for that particular rank.)


    And then player chooses which rank to slot on his skill bar depending on what he needs for particular situation.

    Player could slot R1 of Sun Strike for fire resistant mobs, or R2 for melee mobs, or R3 for evasive ghostly mobs. Depending on what ranks are available in his spell book of course (what ranks he already learned).


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @gothix
    The principle is these are testing numbers and not finalized numbers!


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @jetah said in Power gap between r1 and r3 spells is too big (POLL):

    @gothix
    The principle is these are testing numbers and not finalized numbers!

    Again, if you are trying to market your game as horizontally progressed game and you are marketing this with a huge emphasis on that...

    Than giving such spell example is just horribly wrong. Potential players will see this as either:

    • you are lying about what you are saying in marketing
    • you don't know what you are doing as developer
    • you don't really care about promoting your game accurately, and then who knows what else is promoted completely different than it will end up to be

    Either of these is bad...


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @jetah if those numbers are the base of the testing, then I'm worried... If it was 10-30% increase I was at ease, not at 250%... Explring the world should be a fun option of the game. Not mandatory. That will turn it into a mindless grind like all the crap from Korea.


  • TF#4 - EMISSARY

    I kinda want to see how it actually works before crying doom.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    The game is pre-alpha. They have other things to worry about right now than balance skills and abilities.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    I can understand your thoughts about this and the fear behind it.

    But for first, they just said a new player is equal to an old player and i was interpreting always this way, that it is meant into pure character stats, means, if you compare each character „naked“ to each other with same skillset, they are equal. Not like in other games, where a level 1 character is more weak than a level 20 character, because it‘s character values raise with each level.
    So DS never lied in thi case.

    Also they said, that Knowledge makes you stronger.
    That makes much sense in my eyes, because why we should collect knowledge if it does not give us advantage?
    So it will be so, that an old character with more Knowledge will be stronger than a fresh player.
    Also not lied about this case by DS.

    And then, they also said, that theoretically a new player can defeat an old one. This is caused in chosing the right skills at the right time. Especially since DS said, that the first level of skills are easy to get.
    My example was always if a new player chose fire resistance, then an old player with super hot fireball but no Armor can do nothing against him and the new player just can hit him down with his Axe.

    As for the values, we not even know how it feels ingame or how they will solve not to give a too high gap between player.
    For Balancing discussions we really should wait till we did first steps ingame.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    Will wait to see how it plays out, this will definitely change quite a bit from now till launch.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    I wholeheartedly agree with @EvolGrinZ and @Mazikar , this is too early in development to worry about balancing.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    All I’m saying is that these values can always be adjusted.

    If we were in beta and the game were to release in next month with these values then I would be complaining with you.

    Remember I asked about TTK and @Prometheus said it’s faster now but will be slower at release.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    i do not understand how people can say something is too much or too little ?!?!
    we do not know how much HP player will get, we do not know how much damage reduction or buff there will be, we do not know how hard to get to t3 spells...
    this topic should be only after testing not like this!

    and @Benseine 3900 from 1560 is only 150% increase or 250% damage...
    since 1560 is 100% then 3900 is 250% total... and not increase.

    @Kralith said it perfectly.... the game is horizontal and old and new players can fight and be equal, depending on the skills they choose, so its fine if there is a power increment to each spell.


  • TF#8 - GENERAL AMBASSADOR

    I think waiting to reserve judgement until later is the wisest choice like others have pointed out. That said, I do feel a little that this whole 'a noob should be able to beat a vet' notion is used as if should be casually done. It shouldn't in reality. If you're a noob you shouldn't assume these things are wait until you've gained knowledge yourself before actively running into battle with more experienced players. I know the game is marketed as horizontal progression but that doesnt mean everyone is equal along all playing fields. Even in moba's and the like, everyone has the same tools (characters, abilities, items and levels all starting from the same place) but there are ranks and tiers accordingly to section of the player base to those closer to their playing field. I'm quite alright with someone being relatively more powerful than me if they have spent several weeks gaining knowledge over me. Doesn't mean I couldn't beat them if my skill is higher, but their strength should reflect the time spent, however minor that is compared to other mmo's where level 60's one shot the level 10's. 250% does seem particularly high but even 100-150% im quite alright with. I mean, I see no point in searching for knowledge if it gives me no benefit, especially if it required a lot of time investment.


  • TF#10 - CONSUL

    @miffi knowledge would still give you benefits, just a horizontal ones (like in my example from bit above) and would let you engage in wider palette of situations, so it would still be beneficial to collect it. 🙂

    I would prefer that much more than power scaling through ranks. This would let new players be more competitive with veterans, and this is good both for new players but for veterans as well, at least those veterans who actually seek a fun in challenge, rather then direct advantage over new players.


 

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