Importance of attributes triggering repetition?
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@roccandil said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
I see this attitude a lot, and don't understand it. Customer service matters, and a good business exists to serve the customer, not the other way around.
Yes, but not to serve a particular customer (or part of customers) in such way that screws up other part of customers.
Good company serves ALL the players, and not just part of players that cry about things.
By serving those that cry (by nerfing stuff), company effectively screws up all the rest of players that want to play somewhat challenging game.
And yet every company, one after another, keep listening to crying players on forums and then continually nerf things in game, giving those crying players protections, instant gratifications, etc.
In this way, players that want to have a challenging game get screwed up over and over, and thus I consider all companies that do this (listen to crying players demands) an utter shit companies.
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And this is happening right now, players have already started crying about not being able to change attributes after initial setup.
They cry about setting them wrong, not being able to change them if they want to change build, etc.
Devs have said that attributes will remain a permanent feature, like in classic RPG games, and they only said that there might be a possibility to change them later on, due to knowing that players will cry (and we see this crying confirmed here).
I would like devs to say to players: "attributes are permanent, deal with it." "Accept this as a challenge."
But I know part of players will continue crying until they get what they want. Now it just remains to be seen if this company will be the same as all other companies and will succumb to crying players demands, or will they make the statement and say "this is the game as we designed it, accept the challenges and limitations and work around them, show your skill".
Let's see, although I suspect it will be like in any other MMOs, and things will get nerfed over time, because part of players will continue crying.
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@therippyone and @Gothix Problem is reset 1 attribute points is not enough, since the cost in creation point vary... Better to reset all, less problem at the end.
@Needlehawk "preset stat allocations" : very interesting suggestion !
@Gothix "Crybaby players" : It's true, that's why the prestat system suggested by @Needlehawk could deal with some players.
I think, if I have time, I will run some stat change on alpha to see the relation between attribute and other score to help some creation.
PS: In Rpg game you could lose some attribute point very easily (oups... 3 fingers cutted-> 1 dextery in less) and very difficult to up it (with some xp yes, but take a loooooooootttttttt of time)
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
@roccandil said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
I see this attitude a lot, and don't understand it. Customer service matters, and a good business exists to serve the customer, not the other way around.
Yes, but not to serve a particular customer (or part of customers) in such way that screws up other part of customers.
Good company serves ALL the players, and not just part of players that cry about things.
By serving those that cry (by nerfing stuff), company effectively screws up all the rest of players that want to play somewhat challenging game.
And yet every company, one after another, keep listening to crying players on forums and then continually nerf things in game, giving those crying players protections, instant gratifications, etc.
In this way, players that want to have a challenging game get screwed up over and over, and thus I consider all companies that do this (listen to crying players demands) an utter shit companies.
Correcting problems for customers who never report them is difficult, while at the same time it's easy to dismiss customer complaints with which you don't agree as "crying".
In this case, repetition != challenge (and is, in fact, much the opposite). The developers' apparent recognition of that is what attracted me to this game in the first place.
The question here is not instant gratification, but the grind of repeating content while rerolling characters. Forcing players to do so to respec is, as far as I'm concerned, disrespectful to customers who have already invested time and money in the game, constitutes abuse of the players by the game, and will inevitably result in a smaller player base (and less revenue).
Punish participation, and you will get less of it.
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@roccandil said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
repetition != challenge
But the error in your thinking is the following. Game is not designed for you to redo character creation over and over if you are not happy (this is your own choice if you chose to do so).
Game is (or it should be) designed for you to create your character as existing person with inherited predefined personality and attributes, and the challenge is for you to accept those attributes, and then go through the world, learning, and trying to fit in, exploiting your attribute strong sides and affecting the world around you like that, working around your flaws and exploiting your strengths.
Players should be happy they can chose their attributes, rather than getting them randomly (I wonder what you would say then). And if you want a different character, there are several alt slots you can get.
If anyone is not happy with his attributes, he is free to create an alt, or redo the original character, but this should be on him. The game shouldn't get changed because he thinks he should get to redo his attributes like he wishes, when he wishes so.
There are many players (me included) that like the sound of permanent unchangeable attributes.
This means people can not change their attributes on a mood change, or when next cookie cutter build comes along.
It gives value and uniqueness to your character because if you have a certain attribute set, and a lots of knowledge, and you are successful, you know that tomorrow a thousand people can't just change their attribute set to clone you (keeping their current filled up knowledge and skills) and "becoming you".
If people get to change their attributes, Fractured becomes just one more mainstream MMO where people read web, search cookie cutter builds, and change them as they wish. You have a zerg of clones of players running around all wielding same stuff.
I certainly do not want that, and permanent attribute points is one thing that will prevent this. That is one thing i loved about Fractured when I read about this. If attributes will be changeable, Fractured just drops a huge deal in my eyes, and if more things in game get changed along like that whenever players desire so and ask for it, I already see what the game will become, and my wish to play it will just get extinguished.
This is why my attitude is like this. Stuff like this will make or break the game for me. I'm tired of MMOs getting fit to vocal players that demand things because they think things should be in certain way they would like. And game just gets ruined more and more whenever there is an outbreak of player demands in forums.
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
If people get to change their attributes, Fractured becomes just one more mainstream MMO where people read web, search cookie cutter builds, and change them as they wish. You have a zerg of clones of players running around all wielding same stuff.
I certainly do not want that, and permanent attribute points is one thing that will prevent this. That is one thing i loved about Fractured when I read about this. If attributes will be changeable, Fractured just drops a huge deal in my eyes, and if more things in game get changed along like that whenever players desire so and ask for it, I already see what the game will become, and my wish to play it will just get extinguished.I respect that you have your own gameplay preferences. That doesn't mean someone else who prefers something else is somehow wrong or "crying".
In this case, however, (as I keep pointing out), the developers have made a specific point of advertising that they are against grinding. Permanent attributes contradict that philosophy, and I don't see that as a question of taste. It's simply reality.
Now as to cookie-cutter builds, which seems to be the meat of your argument, if you have to use permanent attributes to prevent them, you're doing it wrong. The real issue isn't cookie-cutter builds, it's game balance. If one build is what everyone wants, you've got a broken game.
In your case, instead of actually balancing the game and making many playstyles interesting and desirable (and thus putting the burden of fixing the problem on developers, where it belongs), you're masking the problem by putting the burden on your customer base. They want unbalanced build X because the game encourages it (and that's not their fault), but you're forcing them through the frustrating and boring process of regrinding toons to get it.
That's bad business and bad customer service, and in the long run, all you've done is limit your player base to the subset of the gaming population who are willing to regrind toons to get unbalanced build X.
(I might add, if you then nerf build X, you're going to piss off a significant portion of that subset who spent time rerolling toons. Enter unbalanced build Y, and you've got a death spiral.)
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
MMO where people read web, search cookie cutter builds, and change them as they wish. You have a zerg of clones of players running around all wielding same stuff.
I certainly do not want that, and permanent attribute points is one thing that will prevent this.Can you explain your logic behind this? People are just going to look up the meta builds before they make their characters instead of trying to figure out the game on their own when experimentation is so harshly punished. And it's not like the burden of creating a meta build is high; you just need a handful of skills and then level them up which might take a week at most with a brand new character. Having permanent stats isn't going to prevent cookie cutter builds at all.
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@Roccandil by your logic, then you should fill every wish that players have, or else you will have unhappy player base which is bad for business...
And if that's the case, then I definitely will not wish to play that game, because it will be designed to fit the gaming preferences of an average Joe (because an average Joe is the majority of player population). It will be a mediocre game with very little challenge.
I am looking for a game that is built to be difficult, and then players strive to reach their goals, but not all goals are designed to get reached, some should never be reached, they should be there for players to keep trying, and striving.
I want game to put limits on players, some sense of permanency, some limits on your character that makes your character unique, and not to be able to get copied by everyone out there who will "respec to become you" at a moments notice.
I want a game that will not go ahead and fill up every average Joes wish...
...If I wanted that, I would stick with WOW.
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@target said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
MMO where people read web, search cookie cutter builds, and change them as they wish. You have a zerg of clones of players running around all wielding same stuff.
I certainly do not want that, and permanent attribute points is one thing that will prevent this.Can you explain your logic behind this? People are just going to look up the meta builds before they make their characters instead of trying to figure out the game on their own when experimentation is so harshly punished. And it's not like the burden of creating a meta build is high; you just need a handful of skills and then level them up which might take a week at most with a brand new character. Having permanent stats isn't going to prevent cookie cutter builds at all.
It will prevent respecing to them at a later point in game life, because people can only "copy starting builds / sets", and roll their characters based on currently known cookie cutter builds (which is by the way 0 at game launch, and will remain 0 for a long time till people get more knowledge and experience), but over time new builds will get discovered (or become available by new skill additions to game, or balancing patches). Reaching all 400 skills will take major amount of time, and by the time people will have many skills unlocked, and then they figure out some new build to respec to, they will not wish to reroll anymore, because they would lose all the knowledge gained then. This is why at that point there will be no more "changing to a meta build" (instead people will roll an alt to play other type of character, as they should).
On the other hand if you allow changing of attribute points, then people will keep changing them even when they are filled up with 400 skills, every time when they want to switch from playing a "mage" to playing a "warrior" or whatever. They will be able to copy anyone, at any time, even in late point in game.
This is what I would like to avoid.
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SUGGESTION:
Perhaps allow players to respec attribute points (at a cost) until the point when they unlock 50 skills (there would be a warning about your attribute set soon becoming permanent upon reaching 50 skills).
This would allow players to experiment with their builds early on to learn "what everything does" and to try out several builds and attribute setups, but at a certain point in time (closing in on 50 unlocked skills) they would have to decide on attribute set they want to keep on that particular character and stick with it.
They would always be able to roll an alt to play a different type of character (or several of them). This would also make having more than 3 character slots meaningful - otherwise there would be no point in being able to have more than 3 slots (one for each race).
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
On the other hand if you allow changing of attribute points, then people will keep changing them even when they are filled up with 400 skills, every time when they want to switch from playing a "mage" to playing a "warrior" or whatever. They will be able to copy anyone, at any time, even in late point in game.
Being so strict with stats makes sense where you only get one character with no possible ability to have alts, but that's not Fractured. There's nothing stopping that person with all skills from just having a dedicated meta alt that they keep rerolling into whatever the flavor of the month is. In this situation, the only difference between the old character respeccing and making a new character is the amount of time it takes to learn and level up the meta skills on the new character, and since Fractured doesn't have much vertical progression it won't take much time for that alt to reach full potential.
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@target said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
Being so strict with stats makes sense where you only get one character with no possible ability to have alts, but that's not Fractured. There's nothing stopping that person with all skills from just having a dedicated meta alt that they keep rerolling into whatever the flavor of the month is. In this situation, the only difference between the old character respeccing and making a new character is the amount of time it takes to learn and level up the meta skills on the new character, and since Fractured doesn't have much vertical progression it won't take much time for that alt to reach full potential.
Oh yes it will...
Leveling up all those skills to r3 will take a major amount of time, and that will prevent people re rolling. This is exactly why people should have several alts to play different types of characters (and why it will make sense to purchase several extra alt slots if you wish to play several types of characters).
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
Oh yes it will...
Leveling up those skills will take a major amount of time, and that will prevent people re rolling.Leveling up all 400 skills to level 3 will take a major amount of time. I doubt 8 skills will take much more than a week or two especially if you already know what to do.
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@target said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
Leveling up all 400 skills to level 3 will take a major amount of time. I doubt 8 skills will take much more than a week or two.
It will take more than that imo, but, even if it would take 2 weeks, this would still prevent most people re rolling like a mad man every time they wish to play something else. Besides 2 weeks (which is a long time to waste for re rolling) you also lose housing, learned professions, etc.
I believe my suggestion from above would work nicely to let people learn about the game in beginning of playing, but needing to chose and stick with permanent attribute set when they surpass an "early" phase of playing.
THE WORST option would be a respec token sold in shop, in which case game becomes P2W and I'm most definitely out.
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
It will take more than that imo, but, even if it would take 2 weeks, this would still prevent most people re rolling like a mad man every time they wish to play something else. Besides 2 weeks (which is a long time to waste for re rolling) you also lose housing, learned professions, etc.
Housing is shared between alts of the same race, and your main can still craft or even just buy gear and supplies for the alt, not to mention guilds can cover gearing for alts since they will most likely overproduce for backup sets anyways. From what I can see, time is still the only major factor and at that point why not just have a respec that takes two weeks (or however much time it takes on average to kit out an alt) to take effect. Can even have some other detriments like forgetting all learned crafting recipes to catch people respeccing to easily craft new stuff.
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
It will prevent respecing to them at a later point in game life, because people can only "copy starting builds / sets", and roll their characters based on currently known cookie cutter builds (which is by the way 0 at game launch, and will remain 0 for a long time till people get more knowledge and experience), but over time new builds will get discovered (or become available by new skill additions to game, or balancing patches).
Theorycrafters will figure out the cooking cutter builds during the alpha and beta.
Reaching all 400 skills will take major amount of time, and by the time people will have many skills unlocked, and then they figure out some new build to respec to, they will not wish to reroll anymore, because they would lose all the knowledge gained then. This is why at that point there will be no more "changing to a meta build" (instead people will roll an alt to play other type of character, as they should).
Hardcore min-maxers don't care about completionism.
Leveling up all those skills to r3 will take a major amount of time, and that will prevent people re rolling. This is exactly why people should have several alts to play different types of characters (and why it will make sense to purchase several extra alt slots if you wish to play several types of characters).
With 3 base character slots + 3 from the KS, it's probably possible to have an alt for every conceivable build possible. At that point rerolling isn't even necessary anymore. Just change chars whenever something else becomes FotM.
It will take more than that imo, but, even if it would take 2 weeks, this would still prevent most people re rolling like a mad man every time they wish to play something else.
I am sure the most dedicated guilds will boost those alts to get their skills leveled to lvl 3 asap.
Besides 2 weeks (which is a long time to waste for re rolling) you also lose housing, learned professions, etc.
I believe housing is account-wide. Also, you don't need professions on each alt per se. Just use your main to craft items for your alts.
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@gothix said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
@Roccandil by your logic, then you should fill every wish that players have, or else you will have unhappy player base which is bad for business...
And if that's the case, then I definitely will not wish to play that game, because it will be designed to fit the gaming preferences of an average Joe (because an average Joe is the majority of player population). It will be a mediocre game with very little challenge.
I am looking for a game that is built to be difficult, and then players strive to reach their goals, but not all goals are designed to get reached, some should never be reached, they should be there for players to keep trying, and striving.
I want game to put limits on players, some sense of permanency, some limits on your character that makes your character unique, and not to be able to get copied by everyone out there who will "respec to become you" at a moments notice.
I want a game that will not go ahead and fill up every average Joes wish...
...If I wanted that, I would stick with WOW.I could quibble with a lot of this, but the core of your argument seems to be a desire for uniqueness. I can agree with that in principle, but your implementation relies on forcing people to be unique, by punishing them for respeccing.
Long run, that's no good. Punishment discourages participation.
Instead, I'd look at it from this perspective: could build diversity be encouraged via rewards?
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This thread is more of a discussion now than a question, so I'm moving it to General Discussions.
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to me Fractured should have meaningful choices but those choices should include as much in game information about them.
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I'm still much more concerned about new players not understanding that they need to get their stats up to 10. Actually, if the min-maxxers manage to find "best builds" that are really that much better, then the devs have failed at one of their tasks - keeping the PVP even between veterans and newcomers.
