Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users
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@jetah said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
I'd love to see some clarification by @Prometheus as to why INT will be used for so many skills. I'd love to see a dual-attribute setup so that having high INT won't be so beneficial. Eve Online did this and it was pretty good.
Right now it's due to there being 9 schools of magic and only 5 schools of fighting. Since INT drives mana, it has to be used for so many. I'm still curious if something like Stamina is used as "mana" for melee types.
I always found it odd that Warfare has 3 attributes attached - it's the only one; my guess is most people that pick that will just ignore CHA.
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@kellewic
sounds like a secondary stat for learning is definitely needed then. The primary attribute could grant 75% of the training time while the secondary grants 25%. Maybe 60/40.we'll have to see what DS does.
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@jetah is it a time waiting system? I thought it was gona be a buying system where you "earned" points to put into skills that you unlocked
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@gothix said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
@roccandil said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
@Gothix
What exactly do you mean by "skill"? The definition can range from twitchy mouse moves to chess-like deep thinking.In context of this thread, skill as spell / ability. Healing grace, arrow volley, throw shield, vanish,...
I'm lost.
I thought you meant player skill! (Specifically, regarding your aversion to rock/paper/scissors.)
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@lovechildbell It's both. When you've completed 2 of a skills required tasks, you then use knowledge + a school tome to begin studying the next level of the skill, which takes time. You can shorten the timer with consumables and "actively playing."
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@target is the time affected by stats or just the knowledge points? And are we talking eve level waiting times?
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@gothix you should totally go with the archer, who will most likely be able to use dagger and other assasination skills AS well which would make you a very good anti mage troop.
Going invisible most likely very good disengage skills like long hoops or speed bursts, arrow volley, silencing arrow, headshot, backstab and so on and so on. What is there to Miss...
Not to mention you should have an actual usable auto attack unlike a mage and if there is a specialisation tree tuen yes, mages may habe 9 trees to specialise in but no way they will acquire true mastery in More schools than anyone else.
Also there are only 3 schools oft magic with DMG potencial if i remember right all the while illusion magic and co may just AS well be employed by archers etc.
We should all wait and keep an open mind instead of comming to conclusions without facts to back Them up.
And the higher learning speed makes sense since there will simply be more skills for mages to acquire and they wont be able to acquire a Prosper/ favored build in a comparable time to everybody else. Also u warriors can usw weapons, armors and shields unlike magesSo yeah still cant understand...
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It really comes down to mechanic details tho, it's hard to say what will be overpowered and what will be not so far.
And don't forget, that one day you can get all abilities you want without having any int.
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I think that they should looks at D&D for casting.
First, split spell in divine and arcane(or other name), after all, we have a lot of divine intervention from what they said.
Second, perception should be the base of it.
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@lovechildbell The time is affected by int and potentially other stats. The spotlight was unclear. It didn't say how long the waiting time was, but I believe it was mentioned by Prometheus that a hardcore player would take months to max out all skills, and there are 400 skills, which gives you an idea of how long it might be.
@demilich said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
Going invisible most likely very good disengage skills like long hoops or speed bursts, arrow volley, silencing arrow, headshot, backstab and so on and so on. What is there to Miss...
No one's arguing that other stat specs aren't going to have skills. The argument is that a primarily int specced character can seemingly fill every role, while also having more access to skills at a faster rate, and tons of mana to use everything. Int seems to offers far more flexibility than every other stat.
We should all wait and keep an open mind instead of comming to conclusions without facts to back Them up.
These arguements are based on facts. The facts are right there in the spotlights. Of course we don't know the full picture, so we're working with incomplete information, but that doesn't mean we can't voice concerns over the information we do have.
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@target said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
No one's arguing that other stat specs aren't going to have skills. The argument is that a primarily int specced character can seemingly fill every role, while also having more access to skills at a faster rate, and tons of mana to use everything. Int seems to offers far more flexibility than every other stat.
yea flexibility at the cost of not being as effective with some if not most of those skills.
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@lovechildbell said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
yea flexibility at the cost of not being as effective with some if not most of those skills.
What are you basing that off of?
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@lovechildbell The other half of the argument is that Int is good for all spell schools, of which there are 9. Compared to the 5 physical schools (assassin, war, martial, archer, music).
If each school is of equal size (an unknown, but not an entirely impossible situation), then mages an advantage in terms of skills they excel at, ignoring what ever else they stat'd up.Further, most skills will (at this point) use mana to function - so, there is some concern that, even if a mage isn't "good" with a skill, they'd make up for it by being able to spam those skills more often than a specialist - which is why there was a proposal that a skill should through-put more than the main stat, to create variations.
I personally doubt they will do skill distribution evenly, or that the schools are fully finalized, but that part of the argument.
I also will note that, with 8 active skills (we're theorizing), no mage is going to cover every situation effectively at the same time, no matter how many situations they can cover in theory. Being able to dps effectively is going to eat 3 to 5 slots: a single target, a multi-target, one or two more to cover cool-down on those/a nuke, and maybe a buff to up your damage. AND you probably need one bread and butter, non-magic attack skill, because there is some chance of bumping into something immune to magic.
that leave you 2-4 skills to handle defense, healing, counter-spelling/counter-counter-spelling/counter-debuff, and whatever utilities/cc you might need. Ain't happening XD
which is, partially, why I'm not worried.(I'm also not worried because I assume the other 5 malus will be equally nasty as the one we know about)
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@target The fact that every other stat has effects on things like str for armour, dex to hit, perc for crit chance etc.
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My mind immediately travels back to Runes of Magic, and an immortal mage-healers who could solo dungeons, super DPS and amazing self heal + kite.
I hope it will not end up like that here, and make other specs pretty useless in comparison.
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It will definitely be interesting and even though INT is a measure of magical power I wonder if a mage might also need DEX for accuracy of single target spells, STR and CON for life, and PER for crits. AoEs might be the wild card here since INT is magical power and AoEs likely don't need accuracy.
I really can't wait for more information on all of this to see what shakes out. I planned to play a "summoner" - necro, conjurer, illusionist; but if melee is the underdog, I will likely go that route. I always hate playing "the meta" because everyone else does.
Just wondering if a mage front loads INT, how much they suffer due to low life - powerful but brittle.
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@kellewic said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
powerful but brittle
If there aren't any good ways to strip buffs, they might not even be brittle: Abjuration "allows the caster to grant immunity to magical and physical attacks, absorb or reflect hostile magic, and generate auras that negate the adverse effects of the elements", Divination "allows the caster to amplify its senses dramatically, increasing the perception of its surroundings to the point it becomes able to predict how most events will unfold in the near future", Enchanting can "increase reflexes of the caster" and it should be obvious how Restoration may make mages harder to kill. The only school that mentions being able to counter mage defenses is Abjuration which is also int based.
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@target maybe there is a maximum number of buffs, long interruptable casting times, the sheer number of skills needed and the training needed for said skills, costly casting components. We simply do not know enough to say whether or not its op yet
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@kellewic
I watched an anime where the strongest magical users also had strong bodies. the idea was magic was housed in the body and strong bodies could house more mana and/or stronger mana. it was an interesting concept which I haven't seen before.I also assume there will be defense spells that'll mitigate that need for HP. unless there's a type of damage that ignores spell based defenses.
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@lovechildbell said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
@target maybe there is a maximum number of buffs...
Or maybe devs just like magic too much and are making a game that favors magic over other things.
(Always stay open to all the options and nothing will surprise you.)
