Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread
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Your literal suggestion was to eliminate the jail. it wasn't eliminate jail for petty offenses, it was eliminate the jail. Stop. You want the jail gone cause the alpha testing you are participating in isn't allowing you to gank hard cause they are testing jails. Get a grip a guy. Anybody who can't read through that whole post of yours and gather that you just want to murder with little consequence isn't paying attention.
You are absolutely advocating for your time to be more valuable than the people you kill when your entire suggestion boils down to remove our harsh punishment system all together. Joke of a post.
Also this argument has been going on since PKs decimated UO in 97-98 and forced the devs to put in Tram, it's not some new SJW thing or whatever you labeled it. Your time is not more important than everyone else.
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@trik said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
You are absolutely advocating for your time to be more valuable than the people you kill when your entire suggestion boils down to remove our harsh punishment system all together. Joke of a post.
For you to think this is a good system for the LONGEVITY OF FRACTURED makes you an absolute fucking moron.
This system WILL be the death of Fractured in the future if it remains as is.
This game has so many issues because of this "3 planet, 3 rules bullshit" and we can never coexist because of it. This game attracted all different kinds of players and you know what? It won't work.
Personally I am all for 3 servers with 3 different rules. No cross play.
Fractured has been gunning for something new with these 3 planets thing but the reality is that this will never work no matter how much you think it will because little kids like you exist.
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Fuck out of here you child. You are bent out of shape cause someone pointed out how selfish you are as you pretend to tell everyone you are only here for the good of the game. What a comical spectacle. What it comes down to is you don't actually like the game they advertised. Great outcome.
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@trik said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
Fuck out of here you child. You are bent out of shape cause someone pointed out how selfish you are as you pretend to tell everyone you are only here for the good of the game. What a comical spectacle. What it comes down to is you don't actually like the game they advertised. Great outcome.
Nice alt account by the way. Scared to talk on your main.
Stomping his feet crying "My time is valuable! He killed me!". Absolutely PATHETIC.
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Alt account that is older than your account. I must have thought that through years ago.
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@Nekrage said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
@trik Don't play this social justice bullshit with me.
No one is claiming their time is more valuable than others. I never advocated for no penalty.
You also have no idea what the fuck you are talking about because you get a 24 hour sentence for literally ZERO KILLS. ZERO CRIMES.
Don't talk about shit you have no knowledge of.
Found out you don't even play in this alpha. Ha! Makes sense now
But you should continue to provide feedback on a game you know nothing about. Thanks!
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@Nekrage
I've played every time they opened it up and I am playing in this alpha. So your gotcha to my account being older is you think I'm not actually playing? That's a rich way to discount you being selfish.
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Can we get a Moderation on this Thread!?!
I know that we need to discuss and comment on this topic, and I KNOW Prometheus stated in the very opening post not to let this degenerate into a name calling, PvP vs PvE thread, but it seems like we're getting more and more off topic and more and more into just sniping at each other.
Yes, Nekrage has a point, things that limit playtime in the game, such as jail 'MAY' cause people to rage-quit the game.
Lonelycookie also has a point, the victims of ganking/Rabid-PvPers killing without consequence, and more importantly, compensation for the wounded parties will also Rage-QuitThe game can work. The game does need a middle ground arena, and Syndesia is that middleground, so we have to come together and figure out what works best.
Do I think someone who just flagged evil should get immediately caught for a 24 hr time out and 2000gp fine? NO, it's a little steep for someone who has just barely declared their intent to go evil.
I still think we need a soft start 1st strike rule, so if you declare as evil, and immediately get capped for it, your karma hasn't gone below -100 even yet, you get like a shorter time out, 2 to 6 hrs and a 600gp fine. 1 time only, and if you pass the mark, no amount of redemption can get you back into the safe zone for that.
Punish the Criminals, and punish them with something meaningful. Remember, the 'Time-Out' can be mitigated by paying your bail. There was also my idea of giving them a 'work-gang' tag, where they can't be PvP'd, and everything they accumulate until they reach a certain quota gets turned over to the 'state' except food/healing items.
You could even make it similar to Fetch Quests of other MMOs. You got caught stealing from people near the town of Duath....now that you have been arrested, you can spend your time in jail, OR you can go out and mine 2 Wagon Loads of Coal, Stone or Iron to be turned into Duath.
For the Victims: Any extra Reagents and other items above and beyond the ore collected to pay off their debt that's been turned in can be claimed based on number of times they've been killed/robbed recently near that town's center of influence.
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@GamerSeuss said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
The game can work. The game does need a middle ground arena, and Syndesia is that middleground, so we have to come together and figure out what works best.
Exactly this forget the raging people here.
We are on the playground for both sides and we really should stop to disputing about „i have more knowledge about games than you“ and instead talking like grown up people to find a good middle way.
@Nekrage & @trik
It doesn‘t help in any kind if you both start insulting each other.
@Nekrage Trik may be true about that you simply don‘t like the design, you said it several times.
@trik and Nekrage did made good points, he even said, he would play a Sheriff entirely, if the system fits.However. What we need is a solution, where each side can live with.
In this case neither a „Drop the whole Prison“ nor a „Make it more punishing“ helps, like some people just droped it in this thread in an one-liner.I am someone of the PVE Fraction and even i say it is too high and too unfair, because the Punishing is depending alone on the karma amount not on the real act. I would almost say, that they should unbind it totally from karma, but set it on the act itself.
You stealed something and you get a punishment, you will go in jail for an hour maybe. You murdered someone, you get lets say 4 hours, for each you killed with a max timer of 24.
Once you was in jail, your timer is getting resettet.Without namecalling, it would mean for some criminals, which we all know well, they would go directly to the jail for 24 hours, because they was ganking for hours the poor grandparents on the streets, while other criminals can just walk around without fearing a jailtime, because they didn‘t do anything bad.
Also, theft should have an expiration, while murdering should not have.
And just to clarify once again, we talk about criminals, about doing crimes without a reason (Players fun isn‘t a valid reason).
As crimes should not count valid area conflicts and killing people who step into your controlled area. But going to other areas and kill people just for fun, is a crime, as long there is not a siege and you are involved.
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I get that the argument that PK's should lose time because you make countless of people lose their time of farming.
This is where the bail price comes in, the bail price cost is basically the "time" that the pk'er loses. Time is money after all.
Prisoners shouldn't need to get locked in the jail. Instead they should be forced to pay the jail price. That is the time they are losing.
If your argument is that, "oh, but the price isnt steep, bla bla bla", know that right now, this system already allows prisoners to pay the bail price and get out. What we should change the system to is that instead of allowing the players to wait out the bail/jail time, we should force them to always do the time by farming for the bail price.
With this system, players arent effectively locked out of the game if they want to save money, or have no money, they will always be able to continue playing.
One more point - criminals karma should reset to 0 after release from prison. They've essentially did their time, and can now decide whether they want to go good, or continue being evil.
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@Nekrage Can you have a civil discussion without insulting people?
Prometheus asked for a lack of toxicity. You are disrespecting him.
We can have a discussion without the childish behavior.
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I think at this point we all are aware that the time definetly should be tweaked, especially if the red has not much -karma.
(or switch the system to gold only but let them hang out in prison for 5min, that he can't be just on a killing spree instantly).Overall we want a more flexible system, not a binary (more like the UO system). The main problem right now beside the jail time is that it is way to easy to roam in big grps or even promote that because of how the current system works (reds and sherrifs alike).
We need something that counters the natural behaviour to roam in large grps, not something that promotes that (i.g. way too many sherriffs because you can do that in the starter town, i think valhalla is the only city with a prison rn, and therefore reds tend to make huge grps because there are so many sherriffs everywhere). Like a dmg debuff for larger grps or less loot posibilities to promote small scale instead of large grps.
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We may be looking at this in the wrong way as well... If we break to the core, we can better understand the mentality for each world I believe.
To me, PvP players want to PvP because there is more challenge to killing an actual player rather than a mindless mob. To me, these are the true player vs player players. These people will also choose Tartoros because it will give them the best players to fight against as they will all be skilled players.
For the people who literally do not like PvP, these people will choose Arboreus as there is no PvP on that planet.
Now... Syndesia. If the people who like PvP go to Tartoros and the people who do not like PvP at all go to Arboreus, then who is left on Syndesia?? The people left here are 1) Those who like to PvP with their PvE. and (this next one is the crutch) 2) The Gankers. People who are unskilled at killing players and therefore get their highs from griefing other players who hold the least amount of abilitiy to hurt them. This means training mobs to the group, attacking a group while they are engaged in fights with mobs, and killing noobs. I believe we can ALL say that these are the players who give PvP a very bad name and nobody (except themselves) actually like.
Currently, everyone is having to play on Syndesia due to the lack of the other systems being in placed, however once those other planets are opened... I think Syndesia will be like I mentioned above. Due to this, a tough crime system does need to be in place to keep the "gankers" in control, however it should not penalize true pvpers who are not ganking but actually doing pvp properly. (One reason I like Lineage's and AoC's method for handling griefing)
So with this in mind, maybe we can come up with a better system that works for Syndesia now.
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I know I already tossed in my $0.02, but I scrounged around for 2 more.
Much of this is rehashed from my conversations with @MrFlako, @Nekrage, and @Rife, but I'd like feedback from others as well.
As a preface, I've been a staunch advocate for Fractured to implement "hardcore" gameplay mechanics like unit collision and total friendly fire (for alliances, guilds, and yes, even parties) for years. I completely oppose notions like linked gold funds aka the Global Wallet, universal markets aka the Linked Marketplace, and fast travel in any form, including Harbors. I have no interest in many QoL "improvements" like auto-stack, mass select, and most auto-functions.
In sum, I personally want Fractured to be a complex, thoughtful, inconvenient game where effort, logistics, and manpower must carefully considered and allocated, where no action is taken for granted.
In a perfect world, I'd love the notion of an "Anything Goes" game system where players could do whatever they wanted but where player-created and run social systems would create a largely orderly game where excess crime is severely curtailed by player actions as opposed to mechanical systems like prisons, etc.
...But I've never seen that happen.
As I've repeatedly mentioned on these forums and in Discord, it's important to remember that Fractured is a video game. So whereas real life would technically qualify as "full loot PvP," where no invisible wall or magical shield is protecting my neighbor from me breaking open the door, robbing them or worse, general goodwill and the threat of consequences keeps me and the vast majority of others from doing that. Most people in most places are able to operate throughout their lives unmolested by crime or danger. Criminals represent a tiny, infinitesimal fraction of the global population and are only disproportionately active in very few areas at very few times.
^ This doesn't and probably can't exist in a video game, where criminals respawn after character death or can simply log into an alt character. The organic consequences that constrain criminals/griefers/gankers in real life don't exist in a video game. And if those constraints don't and can't organically exist, then they'll need to be mechanically imposed in order to keep Fractured's population content and reasonably high.
So short of things like single character accounts (which I also support) or permadeath (which I don't), we have to get creative to artificially constrain "criminal" behavior on Syndesia so that it doesn't run rampant as it probably will on Tartaros without also making it non-existent as it probably will be on Arboreus.
I support the notion of prisons because I like it conceptually. It makes sense to me. Since you can't permanently kill the player character or keep them from logging into another character, it seems to me that the best way to deter rampant crime is to remove playtime from the offending player if they're caught.
Some, like @MrFlako, @Nekrage, and @Rife suggest that this would cause players to quit the game. Perhaps they're right; but we also know that there's a correlation between unhemmed griefing and dead sandbox MMOs, so just letting criminals do whatever they want without prohibitive consequences is the wrong answer as well.
@Rife suggests just keeping it reduced to a fine/farming for the bail money. I support this if and only if it proves to work as a deterrent: if the bail is prohibitively expensive and keeps the griefing/ganking/"criminal" activity to a relative minimum and puts a healthy level of fear in aspiring criminals on Syndesia, then I'm fine with dispensing from real-time time-outs.
However, I genuinely don't believe the fines will work as an effective deterrent once the game launches. Players will presumably have the 20 Young hours to farm as much gold as possible or link up with powerful, wealthy zerg guilds. Once trading and markets come online, revenue streams and inflation increase and suddenly folks have plenty of ways to get the money needed to bail themselves out or bail out their friends.
But I'm willing to be convinced.
Other things I'd like to reiterate:
- I completely oppose criminals qualifying for a bounty simply by flagging for PvP on Syndesia. This is far too punitive; players should actually have to commit crimes to merit a bounty; simply indicating that you might commit a crime isn't sufficient.
- The bounty mechanic should be as much a challenge for the hunter as it is the hunted. Targets should not blip on every sheriff's radar automatically. Crimes should be local and so should bounties. Victims of those crimes should have to go to the nearest city and submit a bounty form: offender's name and coordinates of the crime. Bounty hunters should have to go to prisons and manually select the contract.
- Sheriffs should not be immediately visible to anyone, nor should criminals... mostly. Sheriffs should never be visible to John Q public. Criminals should be able to unflag until they reach extraordinary high levels of karma. Investigation and effort need to be put into this system.
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What I honestly see happening, regardless of this system, is that "evil" people will start on the demon planet, gain all the KP they can there, then head to the human planet, gain all of the KP there and start to really become toxic after that point. Sure, they will get a slap on the wrists but then what? They will befriend others of like mind and terrorize the planet. That will end up forcing everyone that thinks the balance sucks to move to Arboreus. This alone already has me thinking of trying to get all the KP I can on Syndesia, then moving to Arboreus and never looking back. Is that what the devs want? Who knows.
I've watched the global chat. I don't want anything to do with some of those toxic people at all. I actually saw someone in global say "I will go to your house and kill you over and over". That statement immediately soured my taste for this game, and I've been here years. I'm just saying this is only my opinion, but there are many silent people out there that think the same way.
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I have a small idea coming in my mind, after reading @Alexian s post:
What would be, if the Criminal is getting "jailed" just in the list? He can walk around and doing PVE stuff, but lose the ability to fight, kill and loot someone for the said time, until the time is over or he payed the bail?
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@Xulu You forget that Demons, Humans, and Beastmen are mostly confined to their own planets, and cannot stay indefinitely on the other worlds. They can make short visits, and those visits may not even be very consistently available as we haven't even gone into the interplanetary transit system yet.
That means a Demon might max out his/her knowledge on Tartarus, but it would be quite problematic for them to maintain on Syndesia to do the same.
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@GamerSeuss said in Bounty Hunting & Jails - Official Feedback Thread:
ry transit system yet.
I could have sworn I've read that it's completely possible to move to another planet. Is that not the case? It was some during the time a lot of conversations were happening about Angels, Liches, etc.
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No. A demon can not live on Syndesia. (An Angel may be able to, but not a demon)
And a demon can only stay on Arboreus for a total of 30 minutes.
How they actually end up enforcing this policy is still unknown, but the devs have stated that races can only "live" on their own planets.
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One thing I noticed is that there is a lot of talk about penalties based on Karma, but I'm not seeing any talk about penalties being based on Karmic deltas, or whether the target has (recently/ever) flagged PvP. Your MaxKarma character who never flags PvP is likely going to be your peaceful player who is most inconvenienced by being PvP targeted, so it makes sense to discourage these by making them much more risky: They will be less experienced and much less of a challenge, and as such will be the kind of PvP that should be most discouraged (i.e., ganking).
A -10,000K(arma) player who kills a 0K player who has also engaged in PK activity in the last (x) days/hours/minutes should have a much lower sentence than a -10,000K player who kills a +10,000K player who has never PKed. Perhaps the engagement in PvP would count as, for example, an additional 2,500-5,000Karma difference.
