Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?
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Looking at most of the builds posted and watching some videos of the playtests I noticed that pretty much without exception an Int of 16 if not 18 was used by all if just for the memorization points.
I also acknowledge that the magic abilities are the most varied and useful of all avalible in the game and a high int helps with that.
But I fear that Int has become a required stat, thus reducing the real options for players to customize their character. If all characters have high Int as the standard then something is unbalanced.
Thus if all the characters have high int then that means that any spells or effects resisted by high int will be less useful in game.
So you -have- to take a high int to be able to make useful hot bars and you -shouldn't- use many spells with status effects as they are easily resisted by the fact that -everyone- has high int.If others feel the same way I would encourage the Devs to distance memory points from int and instead make them something you can buy with knowledge points, perhaps scaling cost too.
Best case people start with a few memory points but can buy up as they need and magical soft CC status effects are again effective against most of the population who are not mages.
Worst case some players have a huge number of memory points due to their grind and drive and are able to memorize all the abilities, but still can only switch them out when not in combat and still restricted by equipment. They no longer have to reset at fires but it cost them a lot of knowledge points.In addition the main counter to a high strength and constitution fighter, would be magic statuses, but this dose not happen because even a melee fighter needs a high int for the memory points.
Charisma is also a potential sticky point as the words of power only effect those with lower charisma than you... and considering how effective the power words stun and kill were people may start seeing a high charisma as a necessary cost at player creation to protect against the power words.
Hopefully more abilities will come out giving players other ways to reduce the effect of magic CC or damage other than needing a high int or charisma.
I did not get to play in the last alpha and only have other peoples videos and the information in the forum to go off of, so let me know if I am way off on the reality of the situation.
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@OlivePit what you point out makes sense.
If an attribute becomes necessary in every build due to an hard mechanic tied to it, it will become choice less free.
I haven't played the game yet, I was just able to read and watch videos so I don't have the feeling of how it will all play out.
For sure during these alphas problems like this will emerge and will be addressed.
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Could. Choose blood demons
it have 3 int and 3 cha
https://assets.fracturedmmo.com/images/attribute_caps_table.jpg
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@SonOfEvil yes but the point is that those stats become fundamental, and only blood demons pump them up, everyone will feel forced to pick blood demons, reducing the valid choice pool.
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Generally speaking, when playing with demons, you will feel a lot of pressure
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Only the crazy ones are like me. Who will choose Tartarus
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Not only it will not be forced to sacrifice some of the things other characters from the planet Arribiros we have erwydra this have it have bleu in int its mean is the best mage in the game
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@OlivePit - I totally see your point & I'm glad you brought this up. I'm fairly new to MMORPG, and character builds scare the f out of me. I see people talk about min-maxing, but can't imagine doing it myself. Every point I take away from any of the stats feels like such a loss, even if it adds something elsewhere. I'm esp. wary of taking points away from INT and STR for the exact reasons you mention.
BUT!! In the last alpha I was playing a fighter, and realized that I honestly only needed/used a couple of spells/abilities regularly, so this part:
In addition the main counter to a high strength and constitution fighter, would be magic statuses, but this does not happen because even a melee fighter needs a high int for the memory points.
...would be less scary for me next time out. I can see myself playing a 'specialist' that depends more on developing the efficacy of a few abilities, and having several 'mini-builds' using talent presets and two or three abilities tied to those talents. See what I mean?
Not taking away from the importance of what you posted, just noting that there's a workaround that could be very effective in-game.
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@PeachMcD said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
BUT!! In the last alpha I was playing a fighter, and realized that I honestly only needed/used a couple of spells/abilities regularly,
I'm glad someone other than me decided to bring this up first. The imagined need for mem. points could cause the phenomenon that the OP talks about, and so there are a few Min/Maxers out there who will play to that leaning, but there are also those who think outside the box and find a single ability to focus their fighter's style around, and build accordingly, not trying just to fill up their hot bar with skills/spells. Let's face it, fighters are not nearly as dependent on skills as they are on their ability to sustain/put out damage consistently. A tank build fighter, in fact, would probably only maybe use a couple of their abilities regularly, and rely on high defenses instead. With the ability to also respec with presets, one doesn't need every skill possible to be competitive.
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@PeachMcD @GamerSeuss
You are both correct that having experience in playing the game allows you to have greater knowledge of what you need or can do without. As I said, I have not played the game and as such have a similar perspective as that of any other player who is curious about the game and only has videos and posts for reference.
I believe that it is totally possible to find a great build that fits within 16 memory points, however that requires experience and trial and error. There very well may be fun combos that really make the game for a player but they would never think of or try due to the restrictions of the current memory system, especially since many abilities take time to discover and learn before they can be accounted for.A new player who has never tried balancing between all the options to create an optimized hot key bar for their desired game play style does not have that experience. Many of the videos I watched by players noted that lack of experience and felt unfairly penalized by having a low int which could not be altered except by 2 via expensive talent progression.
You both have good points and I appreciate your additions to this discussion. Hopefully some developers have thought of these possible issues as well.
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@GamerSeuss There will be precisely zero one-skill builds that will be consistently better than contemporary many-skill builds outside of specialized circumstances. A tank especially will be better with more skills, as damage is not the point of a tank unless damage is part of threat calculation, they will have responses to a wider variety of enemies simultaneously, and more INT will also make their self-heals and some other buffs better.
Limiting Memory to INT, with the high cost of worthwhile skills, mandates players to take INT. This undermines the point of letting you choose whether to take INT or not as nobody in their right mind will drop it lower than ~10 unless they are intentionally handicapping themselves.
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@FibS And I didn't say 1 Skill builds, I said 1 skill to focus their style around.
Every character still gets the same 8 hot button spots on their character, and even with minimal INT, you can fill all of those slots, you just have to be choosy about the more expensive skills in memory cost and focus on just one or two per pre-set.
Almost every player I've seen uses 1 hot spot for bandages, so that leaves 7 afterall.
You simply have to balance your memory points around the 1 or 2 skills you really focus on in a build. Yes, other advantages to high INT do exist, like higher resistances and bigger effects from some skills/spells, but that doesn't mean a Fighter type out there running with a 10 or 12 INT will automatically be suboptimal.
I've never understood the Min/maxers anyway...it is generally more fun to go around and play a build that is fun and interesting, than one that is just supercharged to the point of boredom anyway.
Now, granted, I don't tend to play PvP, and the outlook for those who focus on PvP might be much more specialized to the point where having 3-5 of the heavier cost skills, as well as the higher resistances is vital for your survival, but I do know that clever fighters with the right timing when using abilities can often surprise 'powerhouse' opponents when they least expect it.
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I like the current system.
First, all attributes have some stats that make you think twice before dumping them: 6 dex - you are immobile, 6 int - you have fewer memory points, 6 str - you can carry very little, 6 con - you are very squishy, 6 per - no crit. You can ask the same question about all other attributes, but especially DEX.
Second, not all abilities have the same memory cost. From my observation, big aoe with long CD are expensive, single target abilities are less expensive. Spells tend to be more expensive than physical abilities, which makes sense because INT is a primary attribute for mages. If you build a character around ganking people / single target dps / auto-attack archer, you can go with 6 INT. A typical well-rounded fighter needs about 12 INT at this moment. If INT was not tied to memory points, then it made no sense to go over 6 INT on most characters and there was a lot less variety in builds.
Is CHA even that useful? I made a table a while back and concluded that it's good only if you can go really high on it, so basically crafters/ gatherers/ summoners/ enchanters /heavy CC/ crit builds. My dps build has 6 cha.
PS: I don't know what is Fibs about, but with 6 INT you can still fill the bar with cheap abilities. Besides, no frontline should go 6 INT because they will get melted by mages. Tanks, self heal... ok
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@GamerSeuss said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
I've never understood the Min/maxers anyway...it is generally more fun to go around and play a build that is fun and interesting, than one that is just supercharged to the point of boredom anyway.
Sometimes its not about "I want to have the best character" but "I want to know if its possible to build..." I have build min/max chars in other games because I was told "Its impossible to build this". And I had fun building the chars.
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I also would like to figure out what the pk players may be building so I can try to counter it.
I see no counter to the power word stun/death when the enemy has max charisma other than also having max charisma.
If Int is a 'must have' stat for the memory points then focusing on things that Int defends against in my attack bag wont be as effective.
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@FluffKugel said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
Sometimes its not about "I want to have the best character" but "I want to know if its possible to build..." I have build min/max chars in other games because I was told "Its impossible to build this". And I had fun building the chars.
and see, in this case, if that was the experiment I was performing, I'd have more fun if they made it harder on me to do so, not easier. Making me have to choose between high INT and other Stats I need to make the build is all part of the logic puzzle
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@OlivePit said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
I also would like to figure out what the pk players may be building so I can try to counter it.
Whatever offers the least risk when hunting people. Usually, the priority is mobility so you can easily chase or disengage, then some damage and CC. Looking at how dex and con (through frenzy) give a big chunk of movement speed, I think most gankers will put points in these 2.
I see no counter to the power word stun/death when the enemy has max charisma other than also having max charisma.
It's not like those are the only hard CC or execute abilities in the game.
Let's compare PW:S to bash (which has no counter if you have low CON). With 20INT, PW:S can be cast every 20sec and stuns you for 3sec. With 20STR 16CON, bash can be cast every 10sec and stuns for 2sec.
Let's compared PW:D to assassinate. PW:D executes people with 30% HP or less unless they have higher CHA than you and survive willpower check (INT), no effect on people over 30% HP, 20sec cooldown with 20INT. With 20PER, assassinate deals 840 true damage to people with 30% HP (=executes targets with max HP < 2800). Assassinate can be cast every 20sec regardless of enemy HP (it deals 600 true damage on targets with 50% hp).
Another important point here is that the person who put 18points in CHA took them from other stats which might be more beneficial to them. The longer the duel, the less powerful PW:D is because your enemy can spam an extra ability.
If Int is a 'must have' stat for the memory points then focusing on things that Int defends against in my attack bag wont be as effective.
In that case you just want enough INT to cover your memory needs... which depends on the build but for most non-casters it's around the default value. So, it's not like everyone will be super tanky against mages.
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@Razvan
Thanks for all the input !
It is information like that I cant get just watching videos and looking at builds or the wiki.
I look forward to playing and seeing the free form class developments.
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@OlivePit said :
@Razvan
Thanks for all the input !
It is information like that I cant get just watching videos and looking at builds or the wiki.
I look forward to playing and seeing the free form class developments.More than in other games I've played, regular participation in the discussions here has helped me avoid costly/fatal errors. The experiences I've had playing different toons and builds in the alphas as the game progresses are doing the same.
I honestly feel for the players who will come in blind - buying the game and believing that they should be able jump in and have the same kind of success as those who have invested time and money in developing their approach. Compassion for them doesn't, however, mean I want to build the game so that they will be able to do that!
That said, anyone who buys in has the ability to create at least 3 toons, and/or delete a faulty toon and start over
For the content creators who are giving out advice for a living:
It will be a true service to let your subscribers know how important an informed approach is with this game. Post the FAQ in the 'about' for your videos and twitch streams & recommend participating constructively in the forum as ways to avoid fatal errors.
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I have played with 12 int in the last major test, and I had no issues on my warrior.
Also, power word stun is a problem only when coupled with power word silence. If you get power word stunned you can use cleanse abilities on yourself to escape free. The only unbreakable combo is power word silence followed by power word stun.
