Cities, Permissions, Griefing
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I keep hearing about the concept of taking stuff out of a smelter as being an action everyone can perform, thus you could start smelting stuff and 4 hours later someone else gets the ingots.
(We're talking about smelters put in the city, not personal plots)
Does this implicitly apply only to actual citizens of the city, or also to anyone passing by?
Is there a permission system in act to allow for example the governor to decide who can access which kind of building?
Can a player grief by canceling smelting in progress, thus wasting precious resources?
Is everything logged so that one can know who did what in those public structures?
So many questions!
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If someone cancels your ingots... stab him.
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@Gothix nice intention, but there are a lot of situations where you just can't.
For example a beastmen city, all Good aligned, almost no PvP possible, can't stab people.
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@Gothix said in Cities, Permissions, Griefing:
If someone cancels your ingots... stab him.
Cant. City areas are safe zones with no combat. You would have to stalk them and wait for them to leave the city for the chance to stab them...
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This is the reason that smelters and tanning tubs are allowed on personal property so that only you can use them. If you are using a public/city smelter or tanning tub, then you are doing so at your own risk.
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@Ostaff ok but then who and why would use a public smelter or tanning tub?
The mere fact that someone at random can come and disrupt work in such a workstation makes it useless.
Whenever griefing is easier than preventing, the feature goes unused...
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@GreatValdus said in Cities, Permissions, Griefing:
ever griefing is easier than preventing, the feature
I don't really think time consuming tools such as smelters and tanning tubs will be used by the common player in public places. Also, supposedly the Governor will be able to dictate who can use the city's facilities and therefore the city ones will be used by people they trust as they will need to "Apply for the Craftsman role" (??). Anyways, the point is... public tanning tubs and smelters won't be used much if at all, that is pretty much a thing of the past used only in the earlier alphas.
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@Ostaff yeah that's what I was talking about, a permission system to allow or deny people the use of public stuff in the city, once that's in place it's all fine.
Anyway if you say that smelters and tanning tubs will naturally move to personal parcels because it will be more convenient, so be it...
Thanks for the answers!
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@GreatValdus Remember, though, that the Craftman's Role is only proposed, they have not actually decided to implement it as of yet.
If it doesn't go through, then all crafting stations will be usable by anyone, as they originally dictated with the city overhaul system, and the main governing factor that will motivate usage of city refining stations over personal ones will be availability of end products based on time of refinement. If it continues to take 8 to 12 hrs to tan leather for instance, then the demand for refined leather will necessitate people using as many tanning tubs as they can possibly access. There will be a lot of personal plots, however, not every personal plot is going to use up space for a tanning tub, and even if they do, that doesn't mean the house owner will make their tub available or use it for everyone else's benefit...it will be a judgement call... a personal profit/loss statement.
Griefing on the other hand not only will thus happen, but it will be the main passtime of some players. Just like there are players out there in the PvP camp who like to hunt newbs who can't defend themselves, just because they can, so there will be griefers who will go in and ruin other people's refinement projects if at all possible.
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@GamerSeuss I'm concerned about griefing when it is not fightable.
A PvP gank on a defenseless newbie generates interaction, one can run away, another player can intervent and protect, so many possibile interactions!
Camping a smelter and systematically canceling smelting to destroy resources doesn't generate interaction, it's not avoidable, it's not fightable.
So yes, griefers will grief as much as they can, but when the griefing comes with interaction you can call it PvP, when it's automagically a success it's just plainly wrong implementation.
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Yike!
Sounds like it would be a good idea to implement the Craftsperson role/permissions sooner rather than later.It always astonishes me that there are people out there whose idea of fun is f'ing up other people's fun. This community might seem to have less of that than most, but folks w too much
& 
have to amuse themselves somehow - I suppose buying a subscription and ganking/griefing until they get bored, then go buy and f up another game is amusing for the same sort of folks who stan Jared K and Stephen M
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@PeachMcD indeed, and usually destroying is easier than builiding, so a single griefer can damage a lot of people with really little effort, if the game allows it.
A single griefer in this case could systematically destroy every smelting ingot in a whole city for hours by canceling production.
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Misery loves company.
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@GreatValdus said in Cities, Permissions, Griefing:
@GamerSeuss I'm concerned about griefing when it is not fightable.
A PvP gank on a defenseless newbie generates interaction, one can run away, another player can intervent and protect, so many possibile interactions!
Camping a smelter and systematically canceling smelting to destroy resources doesn't generate interaction, it's not avoidable, it's not fightable.
So yes, griefers will grief as much as they can, but when the griefing comes with interaction you can call it PvP, when it's automagically a success it's just plainly wrong implementation.Putting people like this on blacklist (independent if they are implemented ingame or just a private list in Discord) can also generate interaction.
But it would be nice if it was possible to stop it before it happens.
Like watching out for the smelter, ...
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@GreatValdus said in Cities, Permissions, Griefing:
I keep hearing about the concept of taking stuff out of a smelter as being an action everyone can perform, thus you could start smelting stuff and 4 hours later someone else gets the ingots.
Hi Valdus
The usage of timed crafting stations like smelteries and tanning tubs has never been an action "everyone can perform", it's always been restricted to citizens only. The problems was that in previous testing phases you had to be a citizen of some town to be able to do most of the crafting. This was fine for cities owned by a guild, but for "open" cities where the governor allowed various groups and individuals in, it was a mess, as thievery of resources being processed was common...Starting from the next testing phase, you'll be able to build tanning tubs and smelteries in your own land parcel, so you'll set the access level on those, disregarding whether your land parcel inside of a town or outside
Those in shops in the city are still going to be for citizens only, but we expect cities to be controlled pretty much by close-knit groups (guilds) only, since players no longer need to be part of a city to progress.
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@FluffKugel blacklisting someone on Discord will not prevent a griefer from camping your city smelter and keep canceling production orders, that's not interaction at all.
Watching the smelter does nothing also, since the griefer can walk to it while you watch and cancel the production order anyway, and you can't stop it anyhow since you're inside city borders.
Plus you wouldn't want to become flagged and lose karma because you're putting down a griefer in your city.@Prometheus that was the point I was trying to understand, thanks!
If the usage is limited to citizens, then the problem is already solved by having only trusted people as citizens in your city, plain and simple.
I've seen a lot of actions are logged in game, can you confirm that also stuff like "XXX have canceled smelting, this wasting a lot of resources and time" will be logged in the smelted, so that the governor can ban the offending citizen from the city?
That actually all the system needs to become interactable: the ability to prevent and/or the ability to punish.
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@GreatValdus said in Cities, Permissions, Griefing:
I've seen a lot of actions are logged in game, can you confirm that also stuff like "XXX have canceled smelting, this wasting a lot of resources and time" will be logged in the smelted, so that the governor can ban the offending citizen from the city?
That's not implemented as of today but could it's something we should consider in the future, for sure!
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@Prometheus yeah I think it's vital to prevent spying and sabotaging operations with people acting good, joining guilds and cities, than months after starting a disruptive untrackable work.
That kind of stuff punishes people who cannot afford to keep watch on the city, and one can never take real life as a limiting factor in this sense.
Plus it builds untrust among people in an unhealthy way, forcing guilds to be limited to real life known folks, while the game should be aimed at gathering people from all around the world.
So yeah, not a priority here, it's good that you keep working on what's important, but the addition of this kind of logging tools to take actions after something happens withou being blinded by not being able to stay online 24/7 will be good!
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I've said in other posts I think it's a horrible idea that other players can just take your stuff from a processing station that they didn't put in. Any option for griefing that is allowed is a stain on the game imo. Why not instance these crafting stations in the public areas so that only the player who put them in can remove them and the stations are still accessible for other players to use? Are we wanting a situation where a player gets mad and quits the game?
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@Farlander Not necessarily, but I think we are wanting a situation where there are more people needing to use a refining station than there are refineries available for use. Instanced refineries would eliminate that element of the game, and then the time-cost of refining materials will become more of a non-thing, no longer a truly limiting factor in production efficiency.
