Spell Tomes/Books?
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@d3Sync
You're once again making assumptions. How can you possibly disagree when you don't even know what the different levels between spells will be. Incase you're confused here is a quote from Prometheus.
Hold on - what we meant in the Spotlight is that each ability should be as unique as possible within Fractured - for instance, there shouldn't be a "fireball" and a "major fireball" that is just better than the lesser version. Of course many abilities will resemble those you can find in other RPGs or MOBAs - buffs, debuffs, shields, beams, rays, projectiles, summons, mobility, status effects - they're some of the elements we're working with, and they're all well-tested concepts. It's the Knowledge System (character creation / progression / re-building) and the interactions with the environment that make Fractured different in this case - other than the fact that there's no real sandbox MMO with ARPG combat out there yet :slight_smile:I also can't see why you think removing the need to go to other planets doesn't affect exploration. "You're insinuating that there won't be a reason to explore if we give players the option to purchase a base spell." You shouldn't be looking at it like a base spell. The level 1 form might be better than the level 3 form as I said before. For example a level 1 might be a high damage single target while the level 3 could be a lower damage but AoE ability to make an example.
"Paper? Ink? A deep cost in crafting perks? Enchanting resources? Of course this initial cost will be reached at some point."
Yes the issue of price can be changed if the crafting materials aren't easy to acquire, but there is also no crafting professions in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure any one can craft anything as long as they have the recipe and materials. There isn't going to be a crafter or enchanter skill tree that provides anything other than titles.
When it comes down to it, I don't think having skills as a commodity will be healthy for the game. And making it out to be that adding short cuts to progression lowers the barrier for entry into this game when RPG's are all about progression is kinda silly to me. If it came down to vote I would keep the current system rather than what you're suggesting.
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@WaterMerchant Also, to add to what you said (which I totally agree with, by the by)
Gold in this game is one of the easiest assets to acquire. Find a humanoid mob and just focus-grind that area if you want, and you can easily earn 1000s of gold in a day. Goblins can be tough in some places for early characters, but once a character has been around the block a couple times, tactics vs Goblins aren't that hard to come up with solo, and as a small to medium group, they become a cakewalk...then we look at places like the Veil of Shadows with the Zombies and Skeletons everywhere, you can probably grind out an 8 hr session there once you get even half-way decent equipment, or a couple buddies to go with you, and easily clear close to 10k gold.
Next, the Market places are going to probably be on a gold standard, even if Bartering is the norm, valuations will be done in gold, and someone will want to just buy stuff over trading as its simple and fast, so a dedicated merchant or small merchant's guild could amass quite a sum of gold for buying all the base skills/spells in the game early on, and they might even hand such items out for free to their newly joined members as a signing bonus, or to encourage those members to be the more militant arm of their guilds.
Buying and selling skills just seems like a bad choice all around. I see no pros really to it, and all cons, even the perceived pros by some people end up being detrimental to the gameplay as it stands. You don't have to grind a monster to unlock it, generally no more than 100 kills of a creature is all it will take to get all they have to teach you, and often it's less than that right now. I want to explore, and encourage exploring.
Finally, to answer a comment from before as well, Fractured is not actually billed as a Primary PvP game with a lot of PvE elements added in (or however he put it, not looking back right now) but rather, it was and has been billed as a game that tries to equally (that's EQUALLY) support all 3 major playstyles out there, PvP, PvE, and those who like elements of both.
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Ah you guys can argue all week if you want, but I still think its a cool idea.
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@WaterMerchant said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
@d3Sync
You're once again making assumptions. How can you possibly disagree when you don't even know what the different levels between spells will be. Incase you're confused here is a quote from Prometheus.
Hold on - what we meant in the Spotlight is that each ability should be as unique as possible within Fractured - for instance, there shouldn't be a "fireball" and a "major fireball" that is just better than the lesser version. Of course many abilities will resemble those you can find in other RPGs or MOBAs - buffs, debuffs, shields, beams, rays, projectiles, summons, mobility, status effects - they're some of the elements we're working with, and they're all well-tested concepts. It's the Knowledge System (character creation / progression / re-building) and the interactions with the environment that make Fractured different in this case - other than the fact that there's no real sandbox MMO with ARPG combat out there yet :slight_smile:I also can't see why you think removing the need to go to other planets doesn't affect exploration. "You're insinuating that there won't be a reason to explore if we give players the option to purchase a base spell." You shouldn't be looking at it like a base spell. The level 1 form might be better than the level 3 form as I said before. For example a level 1 might be a high damage single target while the level 3 could be a lower damage but AoE ability to make an example.
"Paper? Ink? A deep cost in crafting perks? Enchanting resources? Of course this initial cost will be reached at some point."
Yes the issue of price can be changed if the crafting materials aren't easy to acquire, but there is also no crafting professions in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but i'm pretty sure any one can craft anything as long as they have the recipe and materials. There isn't going to be a crafter or enchanter skill tree that provides anything other than titles.
When it comes down to it, I don't think having skills as a commodity will be healthy for the game. And making it out to be that adding short cuts to progression lowers the barrier for entry into this game when RPG's are all about progression is kinda silly to me. If it came down to vote I would keep the current system rather than what you're suggesting.
Projection much?
I never once assumed what the upgrades will be to the spells. I took what was said directly from Prometheus as an example of what could be, but not what will be.
You tell me not to assume things (which I'm not), and then assume things yourself.
I also never once said that removing the need to travel to other worlds was in my inscription idea. Not once. There is no where in this entire thread where I stated that. In fact, I have acknowledged that world travel probably will fit into upgrades, as has been said by Prometheus multiple times with this :
"If this were to be a 'post-launch' game mechanic, like a DLC, then most players would have gotten most of their abilities to begin with. Perhaps they just can't get to Tartaros or Arboreus in order to get that one spell."
So this is again, you making assumptions. And this is proof that you are mischaracterizing my argument by making things up.
"There isn't going to be a crafter or enchanter skill tree that provides anything other than titles."
Why not? I've heard Prometheus talk about a crafting perk tree. Either his plans changed or you weren't aware that he said it. This is alpha. Things will change. We just had a major city overhaul, but they can't add a profession in the future? Yeah, I'm not buying it.
If you want to argue the idea. I'm all for that. But please do not misrepresent my argument. Do not tell lies about what I did and didn't say. I would not do that to you, so have enough respect to not do that to me.
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@GamerSeuss said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
@WaterMerchant Also, to add to what you said (which I totally agree with, by the by)
Gold in this game is one of the easiest assets to acquire. Find a humanoid mob and just focus-grind that area if you want, and you can easily earn 1000s of gold in a day. Goblins can be tough in some places for early characters, but once a character has been around the block a couple times, tactics vs Goblins aren't that hard to come up with solo, and as a small to medium group, they become a cakewalk...then we look at places like the Veil of Shadows with the Zombies and Skeletons everywhere, you can probably grind out an 8 hr session there once you get even half-way decent equipment, or a couple buddies to go with you, and easily clear close to 10k gold.
This is true. But the conversation wasn't about how much gold you could grind in a day. Gold is a mere representation of what something is worth in cost and labor. In a player run economy, that cost is decided by what the player can sell something for. So it's not really relevant, as the cost for a spell could be 50k. It could be 100k.
Next, the Market places are going to probably be on a gold standard, even if Bartering is the norm, valuations will be done in gold, and someone will want to just buy stuff over trading as its simple and fast, so a dedicated merchant or small merchant's guild could amass quite a sum of gold for buying all the base skills/spells in the game early on, and they might even hand such items out for free to their newly joined members as a signing bonus, or to encourage those members to be the more militant arm of their guilds.
This is true. I already made a point of this and I think it's actually a net positive. It helps to give guilds the upper hand in recruitment and they can even offer certain rare spells as higher ranks in the guild, as a promotion. Since, in my idea, you'd have to specialize into Inscription, upgrade the spell fully, and have all the resources to make it.. It will be pretty guild or large group exclusive. But every now and then, these spells will make their way into the market at exorbitant costs, giving options to the peons. Despite them being quite expensive options.
Buying and selling skills just seems like a bad choice all around. I see no pros really to it, and all cons, even the perceived pros by some people end up being detrimental to the gameplay as it stands. You don't have to grind a monster to unlock it, generally no more than 100 kills of a creature is all it will take to get all they have to teach you, and often it's less than that right now. I want to explore, and encourage exploring.
It worked just fine in Ultima Online. Inscriptioners made mage tomes. They made spell scrolls to put in your mage tomes. They were a market item for a gold cost. It actually didn't affect peoples willingness to travel around. Dynamite can make the creation of those scrolls much more difficult than UO if they'd like. That would be my suggestion. And they have stated that UO is a major influence. So it's not out of the realm of possibility.
I think it depends on your definition of grind. Killing something 100 times to reveal a hidden spell is absolutely a grind. And I think most people will still find their own spells out in the wild, with a small number supplementing it with a purchase of a spell. I find it difficult to imagine that you can't perceive a single positive from this. That thinking is so one sided, it tells me that you don't want to see a positive, even if it's there. Especially since I have explained that purchasing a spell doesn't give you upgrades to it. It also wouldn't give you any knowledge of the creature, so you wouldn't know it's weaknesses. You'd still have to explore and kill that creature. You either didn't read what I said, or you're ignoring it.
Finally, to answer a comment from before as well, Fractured is not actually billed as a Primary PvP game with a lot of PvE elements added in (or however he put it, not looking back right now) but rather, it was and has been billed as a game that tries to equally (that's EQUALLY) support all 3 major playstyles out there, PvP, PvE, and those who like elements of both.
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@GamerSeuss said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
. Lair creatures would be the Legends and Bosses, and possibly chests or other types of lootables within certain specific home base settings. For instance, a Bear might spawn, and after you killed it, a search of the area might eventually lead you to a bear's cave, and in the cave is a pile of refuse and junk that when searched might contain more extensive 'treasures' than what you would find on the creatures themselves in the wild.
This is, again, if the Devs want to go through the details of putting lairs that are searchable sprinkled in the wild...or chests that periodically refill and become researchable in Tribal centers and old ruins.
Now THIS is an idea I love. Might be best as a later addition but makes total sense.
Added benefit of giving folks a reason to keep dealing with lower-level mobs after the 100% knowledge is gained - if killing a bear, a goblin, a skel, or a fox spawned a nearby lair to seek out and raid for stuff the creature had collected from unwary travelers....
Hard to find a down side from here. Thanks GamerSeuss!
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@d3Sync said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
I think it's actually a net positive. It helps to give guilds the upper hand in recruitment
As it has also already been stated in several places, the Guilds don't need an upper hand. The Guilds already have a distinct advantage over the solo/small group/guild player and the devs have said they are trying to equalize play across playstyles, not trying to clearly set one group above the others, so again, this counts as a Con, not a Pro.
Being able to buy something you should go out and earn is never going to be a Pro in the long run. Sure, the one doing it sees it as a shortcut, but shortcuts shortchange a player from the total experience of the game. The arguments about still not getting the upgraded spells don't hold water, because as Prometheus has also said, Base spells are going to be just as good as the 'upgraded' spells, all spells will just have their niche usages. As to not learning the weaknesses of a given creature, well, as the buying of skills/spells makes it to where the player doesn't have a strong incentive to go out and confront that creature anyway, it no longer matters if you learn their weaknesses or not. Even though the game is set to cater to craftsman and skillers as much as mercenaries and bounty hunters and PvP types, they do want some incentive to have everyone go out and explore and do a little bit of the killing, to get their feet wet, and acquire those initial base skills/spells, even if they never need the more 'advanced' spells and skills you talk about. Being able to buy them eliminates that incentive all together.
So again, I state that I see no real Pros to this idea, and lots of Cons.
Also, comparing this game to Ultima Online is definitely not a fair comparison. Ultima Online was the first real MMORPG out, period, over 23 years ago, and as such, many things worked for that game that wouldn't work now, because the game had no competition whatsoever for the MMORPG enthusiasts...they were the only game in town. Before UO came out, you had MUDs, MUSHes, MOOs, and MUCKs, which were all pretty much text based, and just the graphics aspect alone was enough to draw people into the game who want the MMORPG type experience. This is the reason that when EverQuest and WoW came about, Ultima was pretty much dead in the water. Shoot, RuneScape was a dead copy of UO because the devs didn't want to pay the monthly fees, and while UO is practically unfindable nowadays, RuneScape has 3 different versions that still can be found (and OSRS, the one based around RS2 still gets 100s of thousands of players logging in daily) so your practically comparing Apples to Oranges (or, more accurately, Apples to Dutch Apple Pies) as we as gamers have far matured in our expectations for a game.
For Fractured to maintain their overarching goal of catering to all 3 major playstyles as evenly as possible, PvP, PvE, and a fair mix, as well as balancing out Solo and Small to Large group play, so that no group has too much of an advantage over any other group, they have to be careful how they skew things.
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@PeachMcD No problem, Peach, sometimes I think you're my biggest fan on these forums, LOL you always seem to have a ton of positives to say about my ideas.
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I wouldnt say gold will be easy to ackquire. Amounts dropped now are just for testing purposes and will be rebalanced.
Ihighly doubt we will be able to get rich just by killing mobs for a while. That wouldnt make any sense.
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@GamerSeuss Yes despite your long posts you still seem to be missing the point: Its a freaking cool idea. It opens up lots of game play/role play possibilities. It would be sweet if you could turn your obvious gaming experience to exploring how something like this could work in game, rather than list all the ways why it shouldn't.
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@PeachMcD said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
@GamerSeuss said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
. Lair creatures would be the Legends and Bosses, and possibly chests or other types of lootables within certain specific home base settings. For instance, a Bear might spawn, and after you killed it, a search of the area might eventually lead you to a bear's cave, and in the cave is a pile of refuse and junk that when searched might contain more extensive 'treasures' than what you would find on the creatures themselves in the wild.
This is, again, if the Devs want to go through the details of putting lairs that are searchable sprinkled in the wild...or chests that periodically refill and become researchable in Tribal centers and old ruins.
Now THIS is an idea I love. Might be best as a later addition but makes total sense.
Added benefit of giving folks a reason to keep dealing with lower-level mobs after the 100% knowledge is gained - if killing a bear, a goblin, a skel, or a fox spawned a nearby lair to seek out and raid for stuff the creature had collected from unwary travelers....
Hard to find a down side from here. Thanks GamerSeuss!
Yeah, it's a good way to do things. I suggested chests and caves in the past. I'd certainly rather have things drop that make sense. So a corpse of a fallen hero, or a chest hidden away in a cave would be reasonable.
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@GamerSeuss said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
@d3Sync said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
I think it's actually a net positive. It helps to give guilds the upper hand in recruitment
As it has also already been stated in several places, the Guilds don't need an upper hand. The Guilds already have a distinct advantage over the solo/small group/guild player and the devs have said they are trying to equalize play across playstyles, not trying to clearly set one group above the others, so again, this counts as a Con, not a Pro.
Being able to buy something you should go out and earn is never going to be a Pro in the long run. Sure, the one doing it sees it as a shortcut, but shortcuts shortchange a player from the total experience of the game. The arguments about still not getting the upgraded spells don't hold water, because as Prometheus has also said, Base spells are going to be just as good as the 'upgraded' spells, all spells will just have their niche usages. As to not learning the weaknesses of a given creature, well, as the buying of skills/spells makes it to where the player doesn't have a strong incentive to go out and confront that creature anyway, it no longer matters if you learn their weaknesses or not. Even though the game is set to cater to craftsman and skillers as much as mercenaries and bounty hunters and PvP types, they do want some incentive to have everyone go out and explore and do a little bit of the killing, to get their feet wet, and acquire those initial base skills/spells, even if they never need the more 'advanced' spells and skills you talk about. Being able to buy them eliminates that incentive all together.
So again, I state that I see no real Pros to this idea, and lots of Cons.
Also, comparing this game to Ultima Online is definitely not a fair comparison. Ultima Online was the first real MMORPG out, period, over 23 years ago, and as such, many things worked for that game that wouldn't work now, because the game had no competition whatsoever for the MMORPG enthusiasts...they were the only game in town. Before UO came out, you had MUDs, MUSHes, MOOs, and MUCKs, which were all pretty much text based, and just the graphics aspect alone was enough to draw people into the game who want the MMORPG type experience. This is the reason that when EverQuest and WoW came about, Ultima was pretty much dead in the water. Shoot, RuneScape was a dead copy of UO because the devs didn't want to pay the monthly fees, and while UO is practically unfindable nowadays, RuneScape has 3 different versions that still can be found (and OSRS, the one based around RS2 still gets 100s of thousands of players logging in daily) so your practically comparing Apples to Oranges (or, more accurately, Apples to Dutch Apple Pies) as we as gamers have far matured in our expectations for a game.
For Fractured to maintain their overarching goal of catering to all 3 major playstyles as evenly as possible, PvP, PvE, and a fair mix, as well as balancing out Solo and Small to Large group play, so that no group has too much of an advantage over any other group, they have to be careful how they skew things.
You are being absolutely unreasonable and impossible to talk to. I've noticed this in many of your posts and it is becoming really difficult to continue to converse with you in an honest manner.
I wasn't comparing two full games. I was comparing a similar mechanic within those games. Please stop taking everything I say out of context. A history lessen is not relevant.
I reject your first point, because it both helps guilds and solo players alike. It gives both options. It's another way for guilds to make money and another way for players to get their spells.
I reject your second point because if we are to dismiss any mechanic that allows people to buy things, by your logic, it damages the fabric of the experience by players bypassing a small part of the game, then let's remove all markets from the game. No trading at all. No harbors. Everything is player crafted and there is no barter system. If you don't find it yourself, then you don't get it.
Now obviously that is an absolutely awful idea, everyone would agree with that. You are cherry picking where logic applies.
It's fine. You don't like the idea. And while I think I've given reasonable counter-points, you still don't agree. I'm fine with that.
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@Gibbx said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
@GamerSeuss Yes despite your long posts you still seem to be missing the point: Its a freaking cool idea. It opens up lots of game play/role play possibilities. It would be sweet if you could turn your obvious gaming experience to exploring how something like this could work in game, rather than list all the ways why it shouldn't.
I agree. I was hoping to have a more balanced discussion. It's theory crafting. I enjoy having these discussions, and rather than crapping on the idea, maybe offering suggestions as to how it could work. Maybe we come up with something completely different? That's the fun in doing something like this.
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Tbh I'm not a fan. A well-off player can create an endgame alt within minutes. It takes away from the sense of accomplishment and eliminates the risk of going out in the wild and being ganked, which is the whole point of this game.
Would you like the idea of having consumable professional textbooks that increase a crafting ability just by using them? If no, why have one and not the other?
PS: All in all, I understand that this would have minimal impact upon the game (the rich guy can create the same alt in a couple of days, the Arboreus people probably have alternatives to some Tartarus spell if they don't wanna go through all the trouble), but this feature would pretty much go against the whole idea of this game.
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@Razvan said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
Tbh I'm not a fan. A well-off player can create an endgame alt within minutes. It takes away from the sense of accomplishment and eliminates the risk of going out in the wild and being ganked, which is the whole point of this game.
I would say that this is already the case. A veteran player will be able to equip their alt with the best available gear to them, minutes after character creation. There are no levels or item restrictions. They will know where the creatures are for the skills that they want. All of that could probably be done in a day, or a few hours depending on the abilities required. Currently, the only thing blocking you from creating a good character within a few hours, is knowledge points turned into perk points. So because of that, you'd have to go out and kill things anyways, in order to get the knowledge points. So it doesn't hurt exploration.
Would you like the idea of having consumable professional textbooks that increase a crafting ability just by using them? If no, why have one and not the other?
I'm not sure what kind of answer you are looking for here. It's almost as if you are assuming what my answer is going to be, and you're asking in a rhetorical manner.
What does 'increase a crafting ability' mean? There aren't any crafting abilities in the game. Are you talking about recipes? Recipes are currently learned by the creation of a workbench, or directly through your inventory. There is some old information where crafting recipes will be learned by 'inspecting' an item, and sort of reverse engineering it. And if that is still the case, then a veteran player would just bring their alt home and allow them to inspect all of those items. That is nearly identical to what I'm proposing. Instead of buying abilities off of the market, you'd be buying items off of the market in order to learn the recipe. This system is hypothetical, as we don't really know a whole lot about what the current plan is.
PS: All in all, I understand that this would have minimal impact upon the game (the rich guy can create the same alt in a couple of days, the Arboreus people probably have alternatives to some Tartarus spell if they don't wanna go through all the trouble), but this feature would pretty much go against the whole idea of this game.
I think that people are under the impression that this goes against the idea of the game. I don't think it does. I think it simply gives options to players because of the points I stated above.
I know this. Hypothetically. As a veteran of the game, who has done all of the grinding mobs for abilities, reverse engineering items for recipes, and everything else that the game has and will have to offer.. I'm not going to be all that interested in doing all of that over again for an alt. And I don't think it's in the best interests of a game developer to want to punish their veteran players by forcing them to 'experience' a bunch of meaningless things more than once.
I like their idea in having to find abilities through killing creatures. I just don't think it's all that important in the long run. If balanced properly, my suggestion shouldn't really hinder your game play. It should support it. Either way, thanks for responding. I actually hadn't considered the alt angle.
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If you observe anything, you can never learn from the book as well as you can from "doing it yourself".
So books and scrolls in Fractured should never give full knowledge about certain activity.
If they existed they migt give you partial knowledge.
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@Gothix said in Spell Tomes/Books?:
If you observe anything, you can never learn from the book as well as you can from "doing it yourself".
So books and scrolls in Fractured should never give full knowledge about certain activity.
If they existed they might give you partial knowledge.
going by that, there could be different tiers of books. there could be a page, could be a chapter or a full book. you could acquire multiple pages and combine them into chapter(s), then into a book. maybe only the book can give you the full spell unlock (with knowledge points).
maybe a page could give you 1 point of the skill. maybe a chapter could give 40 points, while the book gives 200, or whatever the numbers would be. maybe 20 pages makes a chapter and 5 chapters makes a book. this gives the option to the player to learn an individual part or to wait to learn the whole thing.
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Id still say that even full book shouldnt give full knowledge.
You cant simply read about kung fu (regardless of how detailed book is written) and then go fight someone expecting success.
You will get destroyed
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I always have to love it when folks want to apply real world logic to their totally made up fantasy world. With that logic there would be no game.
That being said it is certainly possible to read a book and gain a skill from it that offers the reasonable chance for success. One could read a book on car repair and have a great chance to successfully change the oil, or change a flat tire.
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I'll pull analogy with TV shows here.
You have a totally made up fantasy series (subgenre being irrelevant, space, earth, whatever).
If that series follows some common sense logic, it is MUCH MUCH more enjoyable to watch, than if it's logic is flawed.Made up world doesn't mean that common sense logic shouldn't be applied.
In fact, common sense logic NOT being applied completely runis the experience.
