Concerns related to the attributes
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didnt read it all but there will be cooldowns on re speccing your character for just this reason i am imagining 2 weeks+, the devs are aware of the issues
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I've been in games where you could buy a respec with cash. It's not overbalancing because the stats themselves are still balanced with other players and it is a way for the devs to get a cash grab for those wanting to "fix" their character.
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everyone gets a free 1 think also
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
I was also wondering, that could those attribute points just cost 1 point each? That would make the theorycrafting much more easier and would take away that change you will end up to have one point left which you can not use. At the moment the first two levels costs 3 points, then it decreases to 2 points and after level 15 it raises again to 3 points and eventually to 4 points. Could this system be more straightforward?
If they followed this request it would wreck the game for me, identity and balance wise.
The current system imposes and rewards meaningful tradeoffs. Having the highest base strength (or whatever) possible in the game is a big advantage in a way that isn't obvious if you think of things in a linear way. The real benefits of very high level attributes in a competitive sense grow exponentially. So too should the costs and tradeoffs, in my view.
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@KairosVal said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
I was also wondering, that could those attribute points just cost 1 point each? That would make the theorycrafting much more easier and would take away that change you will end up to have one point left which you can not use. At the moment the first two levels costs 3 points, then it decreases to 2 points and after level 15 it raises again to 3 points and eventually to 4 points. Could this system be more straightforward?
If they followed this request it would wreck the game for me, identity and balance wise.
The current system imposes and rewards meaningful tradeoffs. Having the highest base strength (or whatever) possible in the game is a big advantage in a way that isn't obvious if you think of things in a linear way. The real benefits of very high level attributes in a competitive sense grow exponentially. So too should the costs and tradeoffs, in my view.
Okay lets say those levels would cost a different amount points like at the moment. However, imo it would be wise to change this system a little bit so there won't be this possibility to lose a one point. This can be done making levels to cost 1, 2 or 3 points instead of 2, 3 and 4.
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@Tuoni Hmmmm Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game - the party is not key... well throw out the MM part then. Change your PC's key attributes at will... throw out RP part then... what do you have left? I really don't know.
There are no classes Fractured, but yet the forums are rife with "how do I play (fill in my favorite character class)".
Being able to respec your PC undermines the basic tenets of gameplay. If you are bored with the PC you created then roll an alt and play as something else for a while, or perhaps you are bored with the game and need to find something else.
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@Gibbx said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni Hmmmm Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game - the party is not key... well throw out the MM part then. Change your PC's key attributes at will... throw out RP part then... what do you have left? I really don't know.
There are no classes Fractured, but yet the forums are rife with "how do I play (fill in my favorite character class)".
Being able to respec your PC undermines the basic tenets of gameplay. If you are bored with the PC you created then roll an alt and play as something else for a while, or perhaps you are bored with the game and need to find something else.I am glad you asked. MMOs are about people playing with and against each other. However, that does not mean most of the activity should happen in groups. Sure that is important part but a lot of players play mostly solo even they are in guilds, and even the most group oriented players do solo activities daily basis. Group content is usually something which needs time and maybe even planning, so especially at weekdays people have a limited time to play and easily the focus is then in solo activities. Even the most solo oriented players are part of the world and they are interacting with other players even they would not want to group up with anyone. They can e.g. trade stuff and affect to the world and other players lives by gathering or killing mobs/animals. They can even be a prey for PKs and that way be part of the MM. MMORPGs usually offers a lot of solo content even in the most cases the very endgame happens of course via groups and there is no reason to deny that fact.
Attributes are just a part of the RP and the core is in the character progression, talents and skills. Sandbox MMORPGs can be a special case because the base idea is usually in the freedom of choises and classless system. Fractured does not have classes, essentially, but in practice there is, and e.g. races and attributes determines at least the role if not the class. There is some hope with working hybrid builds but unfortunately too many times the best (most effective) solutions is min/max and focus in a specific area.
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First off, please stop saying "theory-crafting", that is the cringiest lingo possible to say you're planning ahead, that's number one.
Number two, it takes less than a day to figure out the most basic principles of which stats do what:
- Magic Missiles fires more shots the higher your INT is. If basically any other remotely common spell has a non-standard response to INT like this, then magic effectiveness wildly increases with higher INT (albeit with diminishing returns in a % sense.)
- Charisma affects the power, duration, and cooldown of "mental" effects such as battle cries and charm skills. It's also checked for save rolls against mental status effects.
- Strength boosts your soft HP ("Stamina") while Constitution boosts your hard HP ("Life"). The latter is checked for save rolls against physical status effects.
More indepth research into the game's current plans reveals a bit more vital info:
- All races can drop any base stat down to 6. Only non-human races can raise any base stat above 18, and none of them can go higher than 21. (Which stats have what caps depends on the race.)
- Each non-human race also has an "affinity" stat that costs less points than the others.
- You get an epic perk if one of your stats reaches 20 (e.g. 20+ CON gives a hard HP regen buff.)
- It is impossible to have any un-spendable leftover points given the current cost tables. If I'm mistaken, then it occurs only in a tiny minority of stat spreads and is easily fixed.
- The game will not permit any combination of boosts to stack a stat higher than 25. This would be most easily achieved by 21 at creation, +2 in Talents, +2 on equipment.
And no, being able to alter character stats after creation does not undermine the gameplay experience. This isn't Ragnarok Online with its "this class nukes everything it sees but is incredibly hard to level OH HEY you can just use a faster-leveling build and then reset" nonsense.
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@Gothix said:
Perhaps, cash shop can offer purchase of full attribute reset.
Meanwhile in the world, through exploration, challenges (or whatever) players would have a small chance to find "translocate 1 attribute point to another place" scrolls.
Those scrolls should be character bound in that case, and have a limit how much you can have at once (like 3 or something) so you can not hoard them, perhaps even an expiry timer in addition to that. And with a low enough chance of getting those, "purchase attribute reset from cash shop" would not lose purpose, while still offering players to transfer a point here and there for "free" through gameplay.
I just want to +1 this word for word, ok?
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@FibS said in Concerns related to the attributes:
First off, please stop saying "theory-crafting", that is the cringiest lingo possible to say you're planning ahead, that's number one.
First of all, it's in poor taste to tell people what vocabulary they're used to, or what is the commonly used/accepted terminology.
Second of all, if you're going to gripe about this and use quotation marks, nobody said "theory-crafting;" they said "theorycrafting." Should I, or other people, grammar nazi about this because we don't like it? No, because that is also poor taste and is passive aggressive.
Thirdly, planning ahead and theorycrafting is generally a deeper analysis of stats, gear, abilities, etc. Planning ahead just sounds like "I'll be a mage, you be a warrior, and we'll meet up and build our plots on the outskirts of Heartwood."
Finally, I do agree with your sentiment regarding stats though!
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@Tuoni Thanks for the education for I have never played an RPG before.
Whether you are sitting at a table with a group of friends or playing at your computer the core of any RPG is the party. You are not in it alone. Your PC is never going to be (and shouldn't be) good at everything. Being able to change your PCs attributes because they don't have the correct skills for a given situation is just wrong and contrary to the spirit of the RPG experience. That is all. Out.
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@Gibbx said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni Thanks for the education for I have never played an RPG before.
Whether you are sitting at a table with a group of friends or playing at your computer the core of any RPG is the party. You are not in it alone.I though we were speaking of MMORPGs where people use a lot of time to play as a solo as well. If we speak of table top RPGs then of course it is quite hard to play alone but in MMORPGs this happens all the time.
Your PC is never going to be (and shouldn't be) good at everything. Being able to change your PCs attributes because they don't have the correct skills for a given situation is just wrong and contrary to the spirit of the RPG experience. That is all. Out.
Well it can be against roleplaying I guess but in other hand making such restriction is also against the base idea of sandbox. Albion Online is a good example of sandbox MMORPG where you do not even have base attributes, and your class and role are purely determined by armor pieces you wear and weapon(s) you use. I have not seen anyone ever complaining about this system and how it feels bad or breaks immersion from RP point of view. Therefore, the roleplaying aspect in Albion comes from the character progression, and I think the core in Fractured is also in the character progression (talent- and skill trees) rather than in attribute points set in the character creation.
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@FibS said in Concerns related to the attributes:
First off, please stop saying "theory-crafting", that is the cringiest lingo possible to say you're planning ahead, that's number one.
Theorycrafting!
- It is impossible to have any un-spendable leftover points given the current cost tables. If I'm mistaken, then it occurs only in a tiny minority of stat spreads and is easily fixed.
If you do not know this can happen is it smart to say it is impossible? It is not reasonable from game designing point of view to leave such possibility in place.
And no, being able to alter character stats after creation does not undermine the gameplay experience.
Possibility to change attributes after the character creation is a QoL feature.
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I have a question to those who are against attribute rerolls. The reroll possibility is optional so it means no one is forced to do that if they do not want to. If some people want at some point reroll the attributes because the first choises were bad or they simply want to play a another "class" or a role. Why you should care about other players characters?
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@Tuoni Peer pressure. If the option is available, then the possibility of guild mates/leader ship "demanding" you adjust to the greater good instead of how you want to play. It's not necessarily caring about other player characters but caring about the impact it has on yours.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni Peer pressure. If the option is available, then the possibility of guild mates/leader ship "demanding" you adjust to the greater good instead of how you want to play. It's not necessarily caring about other player characters but caring about the impact it has on yours.
Well in that case you may ask are you playing with the right people if they demand you to custom your character. Moreover, this is kind of far fetched to be honest and especially in sandbox game where is no raid end-game content and drooling leaders demanding respeccing for min/maxing the dps or something like that. I can not see that there will be such content in Fractured which would lead to having problems like this. Usually players choises are respected, at least inside communities where people are armed with common sense. I guess some hardcore guilds could demand something extra from their members but not sure though.
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@Tuoni If there are people playing together, peer pressure exists; whether you choose to believe it or not. Maybe there's a casual that plays with some RL friends that are "hardcore" - those are the right people to play with. Just because they want to optimize performance doesn't mean that they're wrong people. Much like us having a disagreement doesn't mean that we hate each other. I was simply giving an example to counter your "no one is forced to do that [reroll]" and "Why you should care about other players characters?" question.
I don't -think- it will be as rampant as games that have raids or whatnot; but there are guilds that will be managing towns/cities/ZvZ. If you wanted to be a mage but your mega-guild demanded everyone be STR based to carry more materials to stock their storage initially; they could mandate that.
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@Manaia Okay lets pretend this demanding happens. It can happen already even there would not be option to change the attributes. People can demand you to change your gear or skills in use, so having a reroll option for attributes does not change anything, the "problem" already exists.
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@Tuoni We don't have to pretend it happens, that's the way mega guilds operate. Yes, the problem already exists, this would be amplifying it significantly more than enchanting gear does.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni We don't have to pretend it happens, that's the way mega guilds operate. Yes, the problem already exists, this would be amplifying it significantly more than enchanting gear does.
In mega guilds there is very easily enough variation that no one needs to be forced reroll attributes and if someone wants to play as competitive as possible then you may need to be ready to take min/maxing also account. Also in these cases players can use their alts. At the end the choise is players how they play, what they do and with who.
This your example is not even near enough good reason when compared how much quality of life the option to change attributes will bring on the table. It is also quite selfish approach to try deny the option from others just because you personally want to protect your character's identity. Identity can also be important for players who want or need the attribute change, they just gives less value to the attribute points and focus more on character progression or their actions in game, for example.
