Death and what it entails
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I think one overlooked aspect here is the implications of life bar playing a role in pvp.
Let's say 2 alliances have a big fight (300v300). Each has their forces spread in 3 groups of 100 people, so we get 3 zvzs (100v100).
ZvZ 1: 85 dead for alliance 1, 20 dead for alliance 2 => decisive victory for alliance 2
ZvZ 2: 45 dead for alliance 1, 60 dead for alliance 2 => mild victory alliance 1, alliance 2 decides to retreat
ZvZ 3: 75 dead for alliance 1, 85 dead for alliance 2 => heavy casualties for both sides, but alliance 2 retreatsAfter this stage, the 2 alliances merge all their remaining forces into the final
lagfestbattle.- If people die and have to respawn naked after being killed in pvp (regardless of the life bar), alliance 1 will have 15+55+25 = 95 people left. Alliance 2 will have 80+40+15 = 135 people left.
- otherwise (same death rules as pve), people who got killed but are on the winning side will be up and ready to fight in 30sec. People who got killed on the routing side will get up in the middle of enemies and be executed. Alliance 1 will have 15+100+100 = 215 people alive, while alliance 2 will have 100+40+15 = 165 people alive.
From my point of view, the first situation is more fair. If you died in pvp you should be killed, not knocked out, regardless of the life bar.
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I like how the devs have done it imo.
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I do not personally like the endurance and life bar system, and in my opinion one life bar with execution mechanic would be better. Meaning, when life bar reaches zero a player will be knocked down. Then player starts slowly get back to conscious and inside that time window the player can be executed by other players or lethal monsters.
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This post is deleted!
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@Meiki I guess that post came to wrong thread...
EDIT: Never mind, brain damage or something..
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@Meiki said in Death and what it entails:
@Tuoni Well as long as the "sinks" are balanced out to ensure that the inflation is not too high for neither the mats nor the gold it's always nice to have such sinks. On the other hand - one of the sinks will probably be guards - they can be both gold and mat sink using mats to upgrade and upkeep their equipment and money to hire and pay them.
Most likely there will be different kind of purchases which will sink gold out of the game. However, repairs and taxes are typically the best ones because those will offer steady and continuous sinking, perhaps every second.
Okay this goes a little bit out of the topic but I guess sinks would need at some point own thread and closer examination. Anyhow, those guards you mentioned, could offer a great opportunity to sink gear and items out of the game. Perhaps on top of gold those guards needs to be armed with crafted gear pieces...
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@Phylosophys said in Death and what it entails:
Hi @dj35 and all others that commented before,
About death, you can read the last announcement on this matter in the Roadmap to Alpha 2 – Test 3. As precised by the Devs, first you are knocked down when you reach endurance 0, after some time you come back up at the cost of Life points. If you reach Endurance 0 and Life 0, you are dead and you respaw either at your house or (for the time being) at the last tavern you rested in. You are asked to choose.
Consequence of being knocked down includes:- Players can stole from your bag. The theft will have different consequences depending on the planet you are.
- Non evil monsters will stop attacking you.
- Someone can use a recovery/revive spell to help you.
- Evil monsters and players may keep attacking you, what will make you lose Life points, when you reach zero you are dead.
Consequence of dying includes:
- You respaw at a determined place, as explained above.
- You become full-lootable, meaning that players can loot everything you have on you.
- Before you corpse decompose you can come back to retrieve your items or give permission to party members to retrieve them for you.
That is what I got so far, more or less.
Hope it's not too big a derail: Do we know if that distinction between bag looting and full looting is really locked in? If so, have any planned mechanics been discussed around logging out or breaking connection as an escape mechanism?
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@KairosVal There will be log out timers for sure which will be most likely different in safe zones and in open world, e.g. 10 secs in home or city, and 60 secs in open world. One really good option is to tie the connection break to these timers depending where your character is at the moment when the connection is lost.
I am also interested is there separated bag and full loot system because who will just loot bag if they have option to take everything? Yeah I know there is consequences but if the thievery flag is 24h and murder 48h, and on top of that you take some extra reputation/karma hit, that is in most cases (if not in every) a who cares type of thing.
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One thing I saw in other games I played was in organized pvp events death/looting was turned off. The event was instanced and once you were "dead" you were removed from the instanced event. I liked this sort of control over the fighting because players could not reenter the fight, you could bring your best gear without fear of losing it, and there were no jerks on the outside screwing with the players in the fighting.
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@Farlander @Tuoni The current plan is to not have a repair system at all, mostly because of enchanting.
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@Specter said in Death and what it entails:
@Farlander @Tuoni The current plan is to not have a repair system at all, mostly because of enchanting.
Hmmm... Interesting.
Actually, if Fractured will have enough gold sinks without gear repairing I guess this can be a good thing. Gear repairing is for players more like a pain in the ass anyway so I guess no-one will miss that. However, I do not have enough knowledge of the enhanting system so I do not quite understand the link between repairing and enchanting...
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Problem is availability of storage space. If repairs require materials, stockpiling of huge amounts of materials will become mandatory, especially for blacksmiths.
That will require enormous amounts of storage space.
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@Gothix said in Death and what it entails:
Problem is availability of storage space. If repairs require materials, stockpiling of huge amounts of materials will become mandatory, especially for blacksmiths.
That will require enormous amounts of storage space.
And you actually need to have those materials with (or near) you to be able to repair. That is why using resources for repairing would turn to be quite annoying mechanic pretty soon.
However, because there won't be repairing, does that mean gear and items still have durability and eventually those will break for good?
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I thought it was said there would be durability since we have been told upon death gear is damaged. That would indicate gear is going to degrade. No repairing and damage upon death means gear will rotate alot. If gear is horizontal as characters are then there would be no such thing as epic gear nor would that mean that gear degrades in stats. So I'm not seeing how improving your crafting ability really really "improves" your character as a crafter. From all I can rationalize "improving" in knowledge just opens up new options. Not necessarily better or more powerful just different.
So what am I getting at? If everyone is able to craft the same quality of gear right out of the box then I don't see much of a player run market. Everyone will basically be able to supply themselves since basic mats are probably going to be readily available. That said the only good vendors are just going to be the ones that actually supply goods. There's no competition in quality of goods.
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@Farlander said in Death and what it entails:
I thought it was said there would be durability since we have been told upon death gear is damaged. That would indicate gear is going to degrade. No repairing and damage upon death means gear will rotate alot. If gear is horizontal as characters are then there would be no such thing as epic gear nor would that mean that gear degrades in stats. So I'm not seeing how improving your crafting ability really really "improves" your character as a crafter. From all I can rationalize "improving" in knowledge just opens up new options. Not necessarily better or more powerful just different.
So what am I getting at? If everyone is able to craft the same quality of gear right out of the box then I don't see much of a player run market. Everyone will basically be able to supply themselves since basic mats are probably going to be readily available. That said the only good vendors are just going to be the ones that actually supply goods. There's no competition in quality of goods.
Well said. This is my fear as well, and regarding to current information, crafting can be very underwhelming activity and because of that markets may end up to be quite poor as well.
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@Tuoni said in Death and what it entails:
@Farlander said in Death and what it entails:
I thought it was said there would be durability since we have been told upon death gear is damaged. That would indicate gear is going to degrade. No repairing and damage upon death means gear will rotate alot. If gear is horizontal as characters are then there would be no such thing as epic gear nor would that mean that gear degrades in stats. So I'm not seeing how improving your crafting ability really really "improves" your character as a crafter. From all I can rationalize "improving" in knowledge just opens up new options. Not necessarily better or more powerful just different.
So what am I getting at? If everyone is able to craft the same quality of gear right out of the box then I don't see much of a player run market. Everyone will basically be able to supply themselves since basic mats are probably going to be readily available. That said the only good vendors are just going to be the ones that actually supply goods. There's no competition in quality of goods.
Well said. This is my fear as well, and regarding to current information, crafting can be very underwhelming activity and because of that markets may end up to be quite poor as well.
Right now, the quality of an enchantment comes in tiers. In the state of the game as of the last playtest, we didn't have enough variety of reagents to unlock all the tiers of enchantments. The Tier II intelligence boost was a bit tricky to sort out. You can check out the enchanting guide here for examples.
There's also the quality of the materials that go into making an item. Exotic hides need to be converted to cured leather, and so on.
Pretty sure that what this means is that the key thing driving a lot of this will be getting the raw materials that best suit the desired loadout. So if you're going up against something that deals fire damage from spells, you'll want hide that gives magic resistance with enchantments that give fire resistance, that sort of thing. Getting all of that to the highest tier will take rare materials to construct and rare reagents to enchant, and will need access to advanced crafting stations in towns.
So with all that in place, the expectation is that not everyone is going to be able to have access to all of those at the same time. Everyone should be able to make the basic stuff. But if you want the best stuff, you need more. A single person could do it, but it's going to be very time consuming and will probably need a lot of travel to get to where all the rare reagents are - and I fully expect that there will be some reagents that only exist in specific contents, specific worlds, or asteroids.
With all that, I do think that there'll be room for trade. It feels like the game design right now implements the "dedicated crafter" archetype as players that have the time, player-knowledge and connections to pull on all of those resources to produce bespoke items at a profit.
Not sure if we're going to have the ability to unlock recipies for the kind of gear we can construct, but if we do then that would give the dedicated crafters a form or horizontal progression too.
That still may not be satisfying to people who want to be able to double-down in progression to make the "best stuff" - but given how limited the vertical progression is, and how wide the various scenarios you may need to equip for are, the notion of "best stuff" is a little bit context-dependent in Fractured anyway.
Just my 2c.
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@KairosVal First, to be honest, this is very cheap way to handle the gear progression, I get it, it is easy from development point of view when you have only few different gear pieces and you just gamble with the passive stats. Moreover, this creates a situation where there is as much different enchanted gear pieces as much there is enchanters. This can easily lead to situation that the supply does not meet with the demand because there will not be gear pieces available people actually want. Albion Online had (in one point of development) a gear system where the abilities and passives where selected during the crafting. This caused that the markets were filled with products that did not sell. SBI had to change the system so players can freely select the abilities and passives they want to use. I can see that this similar problem will come ahead also in Fractured.
From PvE point of view you can plan in advance what kind of resistances you want for your gear but in PvP that is impossible. You never know what you will face from your opponents. Also those tiers should be in gear and not in enchants.
I can see the possibilities in enchanting system and I found it somewhat interesting. However, crafting physical products is much more appealing than enchanting passives on items. In my opinion items should be the main product and enchanting the nice bonus on top of that and not vice versa. This also made me wonder that is those enchants permanent or can those be changed somehow without loosing resources? What is the return rate of used resources if those enchanted items are salvaged? I can see how this kind of enchanting system works in single player games or in MMOs where is not a player-driven economy in use and the gear is more intended to be personal, but trying to create a working economy with all those variations sounds very hard.
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I think that it is pretty interesting with what they are doing with some of the mechanics in the game, such as the death mechanic.
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@Tuoni said in Death and what it entails:
@KairosVal First, to be honest, this is very cheap way to handle the gear progression, I get it, it is easy from development point of view when you have only few different gear pieces and you just gamble with the passive stats. Moreover, this creates a situation where there is as much different enchanted gear pieces as much there is enchanters. This can easily lead to situation that the supply does not meet with the demand because there will not be gear pieces available people actually want. Albion Online had (in one point of development) a gear system where the abilities and passives where selected during the crafting. This caused that the markets were filled with products that did not sell. SBI had to change the system so players can freely select the abilities and passives they want to use. I can see that this similar problem will come ahead also in Fractured.
You don't have to "gamble" at all with passive enchants for your gear, you can get the exact passives you want if you can find the right combination of enchanting mats as well as the inherent passives from the base materials (for armour at least.) I think you can also change the enchants at any enchanting table iirc, so it is the base item that you need (sword, staff, armour, etc) and the required enchanting mats to produce your shiny new enchanted item. Even if I remember that wrong, making new items was easy enough. During the last alpha, only some "primitive" weapons and armour were available, so there is quite a broad scope for new weapons and armour along with enchanting mats for T3 enchants to allow for variance when combined with stat distributions.
If the problem is certain items not selling and flooding the markets, that would be a supply issue from the in-game users and could be rectified by them - stop listing stuff that doesn't sell - no need for design input from Dynamighty. I actually see a permanent market for all the base items (unenchanted) and also a market for premium enchanted items (best in slot) as well as enchanting services at this time because only a handful of peeps can do pure enchants, although the enchanting-as-a-service market should decrease as more peeps take the time to experiment and research top-tier pure enchants.
In the PVE vs PVP planning, @Freas did equally well against tanks, assassins and mage builds with his observation skills, in-game skill rosters and natural skills to kill anyone and everyone (I think.) He only had one set of armour that I remember and focused on a couple of weapons - he had 100% magic resist and high frost resist as well as something close to 100% fire resist on his armour with high base+melee+crit damage on some armour and his weapons. Obviously he was OP and many of those factors have been nerfed for the upcoming test (thanks for finding the OP bits @Freas ) but that test phase was successful in uncovering some of the issues presented.
The whole gear crafting as of last alpha fully encapsulated the "horizontal progression" system that Fractured has advertised. Come in as a new player, pick up a weapon and throw some armour on, go and be competitive without being gated by gear. New players still need to do some achievements to get some flashier skills, but that isn't a huge barrier as you can go thump some monsters. The only advantage a long time player would have is more unlocked skills to choose from (but still limited to x skills per rest), more experience with the in-game system (that new players would also accumulate over time) and possibly some enchanted gear (which could be made available to new players if they were part of a guild or if they purchased some.)
Hopefully we can craft a few more weapons or some heavy armour this time around, but the test is aimed at town and city management so that might not be the case.
As for "Death and what it entails...", I think the last test worked well except some of the respawn locations made getting back to your corpse a long and involved run.
TL;DR: Death worked well last test, please make the respawn locations work correctly for this test
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@jasconine Well I did not mean random when I said gamble so you understood that part wrong. I guess you have not seen a market which is full of different kind of stuff... Only the listing can be nightmare because items will not stack. It is true that it will be caused by players, however, developers are responsible to create reasonable systems what people actually likes and wants to use. Hopefully we can craft a lot of different kind of weapons and armors and not just only few. We have too little information of crafting, gearing and enchanting in general so perhaps it is better discuss about those a little bit later.
