Concerns related to the attributes
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@Tuoni Hmm...I wonder if end-game will involve seasons, or something around that. Then instead of once every specified duration of time (1 month in this example) it would be one reroll per account (not character imo) season. Which, can be a month, or quarter, or every major cycle that changes a bunch of stuff like Diablo 3; no set time per season but they still exist. One month might be too frequent; though it all depends on how often content is changed.
Speaking of content, if a build is butchered badly enough or significant changes are made that alters the gameplay and feel, I'm all for the free reroll. In the event that content are ADDED though and not CHANGED, which makes another spec more appealing without negatively impacting your character, how do you feel about that? I think when a meta eventually forms it'll be a very boring experience if we get free rerolls every month or so and everyone just uses the same build(s). It's been my experience that people in general are too lazy to make their own build and just goes online to find one that works, and they want the top, regardless of if the next 10 builds are 1-10% weaker...which is very much inconsequential. Hmm...I think I poked a hornets nest with this thought process.
Will it add QoL changes? Absolutely, you've and others made that clear. And I know it will too, but QoL isn't always for the best interest. I'm going to use WoW as a baseline for these examples due to personal experience and hope that you also have those experiences due to its popularity!
- Dailies: Give people an easier time to get reputation (instead of grinding) and some money - this then turned into "obligatory content" that people groaned through doing.
- LFG/LFR: Took a huge social aspect out, most runs don't say anything and if they do they risk being kicked for the luwls. Or god forbid someone critique something. It basically turns into a single player game where the other players are pretty much NPCs. They're also a checklist of dailies/weeklies, or they were. So they were obligatory, you had people who didn't -want- to do them but felt the need to do it.
- Garrisons in WoD. Through the economy out of whack BIG TIME. "required" using the phone app. "required" all your alts to have it and maintain it. If you didn't, you were significantly behind in power, economy, and flexibility. Some were pressured, either by other people or themselves, to level up alts to get in on this value. A LOT of this was personal though just because of how much value there was to it.
- Dual Spec: In raids people felt forced into using specific builds, maybe they did PvP most the time so they required this in order to raid. Swapping specs got expensive, and they were "forced" to do it to get a spot...ESPECIALLY because this existed. They couldn't use the excuse that they couldn't go back to a trainer to manually respec each time...because dual spec existed. If they were a druid that enjoyed using multiple PvP builds due to their flexibility, they were screwed even harder if they required a manual build for raiding...or having to scrap one of their PvP builds. Some people also were annoyed that a TRI spec, QUAD spec, or even unlimited...give a little and they want/take a lot.
Jay Allen Brack, the current CEO of Blizzard, even has a quote "You think you do, but you don't" in regards to QoL changes. He's been right about this, and he's been wrong about this (i.e. Classic servers.) Do we really want the potential of every demon PvPer having the same spec every cycle? Or every world boss killer to have the same build? To me, that sounds very boring and stale.
After this huuuuge thought process typed out as it happened, to re-address my first paragraph...I think I might only want a cash shop option or if they have major patches that CHANGES balance - not adds. And no normal cycle...unless that normal cycle changes the balance...which would be very chaotic having to reinvent/learn the wheel every. single. time.
Look forward to your feedback about this, and others should they jump in!
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@Manaia Okay.. You have a quite a lot information here so it is hard to grap on everything, but lets try to check some of them. I am very familiar with WoW so its is easy to go through that.
- I would not say daily quests are a QoL content because those are implemented just to get players login daily. If you compared Dailies to pure reputation grind by killing mobs, yeah then maybe, but there is much involved with that system.
- This is quite common argument that LFG/LFR was a bad design, and even those took some social aspect from the game, those really offered a lot of QoL and nice possibility to more solo oriented players to group up with other people. I would say that only Classic fans are really enjoying with old dungeons and group system but most of people does not really have time for that in nowadays. I like to do something else with my playtime time than trying to get a group assembled just so I can arrange a wipe fest dungeon run session for next thee hours.
- I would say that Garrison was a failure in general like the whole expansion. Storyline was nice and guaranteed Blizzard quality but I think the rest of stuff was quite bad or decent at most.
- Yeah this forcing again... If this really was an issue I would really need some evidence of it. People can be "forced" to do anything in gaming communities (in bad ones) and it is not just limited to respeccing. We have to remember that build swaps offers guilds a lot of flexibility what it comes for raiding and is for sure used a LOT of more to good rather than bad.
"Do we really want the potential of every demon PvPer having the same spec every cycle? Or every world boss killer to have the same build? To me, that sounds very boring and stale."
If we want the demons play this game, then the answer is yes. Usually those players are the most hardcore and competitive players. If they cannot use the best builds, and because of that they cannot compete with others, they leave. META is the thing especially in Tartaros and I would not want to try take that away from them. This would be "poking hornet nest" like you put it.
I guess some kind of seasons needs to be implemented at some point, not necessarily at the launch but later for sure. Seasons helps balance and periodize the end-game content and keep players more interested and stick with the game much longer.
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One more thing came up on my mind. If attribute change will be too limited it will not go nicely together with the progession system. It would feel bad that you have a chance to unlock all skills and abilities in the game with one character but then you are left out (in practice) to actually use them because your points are distributed on wrong attributes. Attributes and character progression should support each other 100% and not create underwhelming situations. Why a game would want to have a totally free character progressions system and then restrict the actual use of it with other systems? This is actually something I hope that developers would ponder from the game designing point of view.
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@Mindark I do believe I got the names mixed up while reading through all the posts I missed. My apologies I actually posted some of my replies in the mixup on the different names. I wasn't wanting to get into any arguments about the subject. I feel arguing is fruitless as the devs have the final decision. I've left my thoughts on the subject matter and my reasoning. I don't think I accused you of insulting anyone other than me with the altoholic reference but as you pointed out that wasn't a misspelling as I took it lol. I will leave the arguing to others lol.
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@Manaia That META you mentioned also made me wonder that a need for rerolling or respeccing will most likely be regional as well. I bet demons will want or need that more often than beastmen for example, based purely on competitive mindset and environment.
I would not been worried about builds what people will use even the meta will form. That is true that some people will follow blindly what is in meta but not all of us, especially those who does not play at competitive level. I believe we are still going to see a lot of different build compinations because some people really plays how they like or what suits best for their playstyle. In addition meta builds are usually for the PvP end-game and in most cases PvE content, OWPvP, solo/group activities has very different builds in use. So regardless of attribute change possibilities I am very hopeful that we will see more than enough build variations.
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@Tuoni Yeah, there was a lot of information there! Sorry!
- There were some dailies (fishing, I remember) implemented in TBC and others implemented in WotLK, but the daily boom was in MoP and those were the way to gain reputation instead of doing the grinds. They've changed since then, though when the MASSIVE amounts of dailies were put in, it was for that.
*LFG/LFR was a necessary evil I think; still was bad for the social aspect of the game. - Garrison stuff - no need for any more discussion here
- WoW Classic I was in a highly competitive guild on the Dragonmaw US server, we had Ragnaros first kill. At least one priest was required to have divine spirit, one paladin required blessing of kings, no shadow priests allowed (they had to respec holy to raid), and so on. Other competitive guilds were the same; some even requiring their priests to be dwarves for Fear Ward.
- When the QoL of faction changes came out, a lot of competitive Alliance Guilds rerolled to Horde because their racials were better. This through off the faction balance even more than it was. It severely crippled Dragonmaw Alliance's side to maintain competitive raiders. All this for a QoL change for faction changes.
Regarding all builds being the same/pretty much the same, it's very boring for me. I've played Diablo 3 competitively for several seasons and the funnest part for me is a fresh level 70 and filling in the gear slots before you become class clone #564632 with all the same gear, stat priorities, abilities, etc. People use the builds and have no idea why and how, just because it's the popular build. Some builds are just outright NOT fun, but because they're good people (including myself) play them to remain competitive.
We have to remember that build swaps offers guilds a lot of flexibility what it comes for raiding and is for sure used a LOT of more to good rather than bad.
Requiring a priest to have divine spirit was good for 39 people and possibly bad for one
If we want the demons play this game, then the answer is yes. Usually those players are the most hardcore and competitive players.
Wouldn't the most hardcore and competitive players know how the stats work and interact and would be the ones who LEAST need the hand holding of attribute rerolls? I can't remember if it was you or someone else who said that if players make the mistake and not understand the stats then they should be able to reroll them otherwise might quit the game in frustration.
META is the thing especially in Tartaros and I would not want to try take that away from them.
The meta will still exist, and it will exist in variants of str/dex/int based builds. There shouldn't be a need to reroll attributes for this. And the competitive scene will be better imo without this because the people with more insight and understanding to the game will have the better character builds.
To wrap this up, as I'm getting older I'm less competitive, but I'm still competitive and generally don't like to play games casually. If I'm looking at this from a casual point of view, I can see how most reasons about free rerolls being a lot more appealing.
Edit: I do play games less competitively and here and there, like Hearthstone. I use my own meme decks and try to get them to work, that's how I do that competitively - it's mostly against myself to see if I can get something to work. Playing the same 54% win-rate decks is also boring, and right now it's boring when 70% or more are the same Demon Hunter decks
- There were some dailies (fishing, I remember) implemented in TBC and others implemented in WotLK, but the daily boom was in MoP and those were the way to gain reputation instead of doing the grinds. They've changed since then, though when the MASSIVE amounts of dailies were put in, it was for that.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
- WoW Classic I was in a highly competitive guild on the Dragonmaw US server, we had Ragnaros first kill. At least one priest was required to have divine spirit, one paladin required blessing of kings, no shadow priests allowed (they had to respec holy to raid), and so on. Other competitive guilds were the same; some even requiring their priests to be dwarves for Fear Ward.
Classic and especially Vanilla is a totally unique case. Without those extreme mix/maxings guilds would not have a chance to clear raids. That was absolutly crazy.
- When the QoL of faction changes came out, a lot of competitive Alliance Guilds rerolled to Horde because their racials were better. This through off the faction balance even more than it was. It severely crippled Dragonmaw Alliance's side to maintain competitive raiders. All this for a QoL change for faction changes.
But in other hand some servers got balanced as well because of the faction change. In addition, this feature has offered so much relief to players especially when they have changed guilds. Without this option many people (inclueding me) would stop playing for long time ago. This is also a very good income for developers.
Wouldn't the most hardcore and competitive players know how the stats work and interact and would be the ones who LEAST need the hand holding of attribute rerolls? I can't remember if it was you or someone else who said that if players make the mistake and not understand the stats then they should be able to reroll them otherwise might quit the game in frustration.
The meta will still exist, and it will exist in variants of str/dex/int based builds. There shouldn't be a need to reroll attributes for this. And the competitive scene will be better imo without this because the people with more insight and understanding to the game will have the better character builds.
What it comes to character creation mistakes yes but I guess you forgot the game mechanics and balance changes which can and will lead to build changes.
Meta is hardly ever balanced between strength, dexterity and intelligence, and easily builds based on one attribute can be op when compared to others. It would not be extraordinary that almost every damage dealers are first mages and after a patch melee dps' get buffed and everyone wants to run those. Very hard to predict what will happen but one is certain, everything can happen.
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What competitive scene do you guys believe Fractured will have?
As for meta... with the number of skills and defensive mechanics we'll have, I doubt there's going to be anything other than vague archetype builds for casual pve and small scale pvp. For zvz, guilds will have their own quite strict builds as far as items and abilities are concerned because the shotcaller needs to know what each group can do and their cooldowns, but it doesn't really matter if a particular DPS has 16 or 21INT. Killteams and hardcore pve are probably the only areas where people would follow hot builds religiously and respec as much as they can.
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@Razvan said in Concerns related to the attributes:
What competitive scene do you guys believe Fractured will have?
This will be a good idea for a new thread with a poll!
- I'd imagine there will be a strong end-game PvP; whether from mechanics or hosted by the players themselves. Like having arena matches where players give the governing town an entry fee.
- There will be world bosses and I believe dungeons were in the kickstarter, so that'll likely be the PvE end game. It really all depends on how that's done though to really say how that will shape the competitive scene. Obviously speed running/killing the dungeons/bosses will be most effective though - but if it's not spamming it wouldn't be required.
- Depending on how world bosses are looted, it will probably be highly contested by multiple guilds and will have both PvE and PvP interactions during those contested periods of time where the boss is fought over.
- There will very much likely be a trade and wealth end-game and competitive scene within that aspect as well. This will probably be more dominant with Beastmen since they don't have to worry about PvP very often, if at all. Just competing with resources with other players.
As for meta... with the number of skills and defensive mechanics we'll have, I doubt there's going to be anything other than vague archetype builds for casual pve and small scale pvp.
I'm confident there will be online sources that have popular builds, and great deal of the playerbase will gravitate towards that once it's known. This is done in pretty much any multiplayer game; especially games with stats and gear. They'll just Google "Fractured int demon" or something. Until the online sources are known though, yeah there will be general playing around with builds. I'm just as confident that builds will be out and available before the game's even released though.
For zvz, guilds will have their own quite strict builds as far as items and abilities are concerned...
Leading people to be "forced into a build" - things I've mentioned in this thread
If there are free attribute changes, it'll be easier to "force" the stat archetype as well. Changing skills just requires the knowledge and a camp fire, less imposing on the player....because the shotcaller needs to know what each group can do and their cooldowns, but it doesn't really matter if a particular DPS has 16 or 21INT.
Sounds like this is a case where changing stats isn't as important or needed?
Also, it may very well depend if the DPS has 16 or 21 INT, some spells use the primary attribute as cooldown reduction. There will be optimal breakpoints, which means once the breakpoint is hit you might be able to enchant your gear with another stat instead! Or you might need the highest INT AND all the cooldown reduction gear.
Killteams and hardcore pve are probably the only areas where people would follow hot builds religiously and respec as much as they can.
"respeccing" is not the same as changing attributes, to me. Respec is short for respecialization, which is changing your abilities, I 100% agree with your statement! Specialization doesn't change your characters being - they can't change what they're "born" (character creation) with. I'm not sure if you consider "respeccing" to include stats or not though. In Dungeons and Dragons it'd be wizards memorizing different spells (like the campfire in Fractured); in WoW it'd be changing the talent trees, in Diablo 3 it'd be changing your skills/passives and Paragon points. None of these change your class and/or attribute distribution though.
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@Razvan said in Concerns related to the attributes:
What competitive scene do you guys believe Fractured will have?
This is a good question.
I expect sieges to be the competitive PvP content. I presume it pages Albion online's territory wars but has more participants than 5v5. Perhaps 20v20 would be closer what we can see in Fractured, however, I would actually like to see different size battles depending of the stage of the city which is under the siege. That would make sense and give different size guilds to a chance to achieve proper size objects.
I am not sure how much there will be competion in PvE, but perhaps those mazes and asteroids could have some potential to work as PvE "end-game" content. I hope we are going to see open world dungeons, world bosses and maybe some kind of raids so people have some nice things to do also with PvE content.
I guess there will be some kind of meta for different aspects but most likely the most important meta will be related to competitive PvP (sieges). Other activities (PvE, OWPvP) are most likely much more unforgiving (what it comes to builds), and actually that can be a good thing because it would be nice to have a lot of variations there.
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I guess I always return to original TSW in discussions such as these, regarding builds and sharing metas online that everyone follows,...
If the game is complex enough (like TSW was back in the day), there is one rule:
The best builds never get shared! that 0.0001% of people that are able to make those, keep them for themselves, and their extremely close circle (clan).
Those "metas" that get shared online, are shared by "little bit above average" players, that want to be popular, that are streaming, writing guides etc. Those players then share builds they found good, in exchange for gaining better popularity.
By no means, those builds shared by those guys, are the best builds around, and often not even close so this generally means, that "metas" are just an above average builds, and lazy players, who can't be arsed to theorycraft themselves then use those metas -- and that's ok.
Why is that OK? Well because if you are skilled player with a brain and not lazy to put in effort, then you don't have to be a clone 12345 because you can just put in an effort, and make your own build that's actually better then metas shared on web.
I can personally vouch for that, because I used to be in a (old TSW) small clan of around 20 players, all superb theorycrafters, and MMO veterans, and we designed and used builds, that "metas on web" couldn't even compare to. And we kept those builds (and their variations) private for us, and never shared them publically.
I myself for example specialized in making solo builds (both PvE and PvP), then I tweaked and tested them for a long time until i perfected them. Then I shared them ONLY with my clan, and showed my clan mates how to use them. In return, I got their knowledge about builds they designed and spent time testing (tanking builds, healing builds, etc...).
I can tell you, those metas on web that everyone and his mother used, were not even close to builds we used.
Point is... "meta builds" aren't a problem. You don't have to be a clone -- you just have to be "not lazy" and put in your own effort into theorycrafting.
If you don't have the time or the will for that... than that's your own problem isn't it?
It's certainly not the problem of a MMO.
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@Gothix If gear is human readable or we can inspect other players, then you cannot keep anything as a secret. Furthermore, the streaming and video culture what we have in games nowadays also takes care of that everything can be analyzed afterwards. So someone needs to fight once against the team #1 and all the builds are revealed.
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@Tuoni you can usually inspect someones gear yes, but not their build. At least I hope you will not be able to here in Fractured when game is released.
My example was from TSW because there builds were so complex that 2 players with exactly same gear could play with 1000% different efficiency, just based on deck they used, and their skills. (No I'm not overreacting with numbers, difference was enormous).
Player with green gear was able to utterly destroy a player with purple gear, simply by being a better (and smarter) player.
You can't say that for many games over the course of history. In TSW this was the case. And the reason was deck complexity and the complexity of the system behind it.
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@Gothix said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni you can inspect someones gear yes, but not their build. At least I hope you will not be able to.
Builds are easily revealed after a recorded siege for example. You can see what people wear and what abilities they use. So I am not sure how this can be avoided.
Anyway, I agree with you that we do not need to be concerned about the meta. It will be formed, it will be changed, and it lives its own life. Some people will make straight copies, some people create own variations and some people goes with their own visions. I do not personally care how people create their builds, I just focus to build mine, usually it is something which suits best for my personal playstyle rather than a straight copy from meta.
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Gothix If gear is human readable or we can inspect other players, then you cannot keep anything as a secret. Furthermore, the streaming and video culture what we have in games nowadays also takes care of that everything can be analyzed afterwards. So someone needs to fight once against the team #1 and all the builds are revealed.
This, exactly! If character/gear inspection is available, all it takes is time to see what skills the opponents are using.
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Gothix If gear is human readable or we can inspect other players, then you cannot keep anything as a secret. Furthermore, the streaming and video culture what we have in games nowadays also takes care of that everything can be analyzed afterwards. So someone needs to fight once against the team #1 and all the builds are revealed.
Armor skins are a thing in the Foundation, and will probably exist as cosmetic purchase items in the store.
I prefer human-readable armor, weapons and magical assets, but there's a tradeoff here between human-readability and a revenue stream to keep the servers running. Cashflow matters if we want the game to persist. It is what it is.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Gothix If gear is human readable or we can inspect other players, then you cannot keep anything as a secret. Furthermore, the streaming and video culture what we have in games nowadays also takes care of that everything can be analyzed afterwards. So someone needs to fight once against the team #1 and all the builds are revealed.
This, exactly! If character/gear inspection is available, all it takes is time to see what skills the opponents are using.
Albion is here a perfect example because territory wars there will be somewhat similar what sieges will be in Fractured. People are watching streams when teams are fighting each other or they watch those afterwards from youtube. I have watched my guilds matches from stream and several top matches from youtube. Some of the matches comes even with commentary like Kostan and Lewpac has done, it gives more eSport feeling. So it is vain to expect something to be in secret, and I do not personally even want that.
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@Tuoni Yeah, keeping good things like that a secret is next to impossible these days. Even back in the days of early-Internet and before, secrets eventually get out. People are TERRIBLE at telling secrets.
You know what they say: Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.
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@KairosVal said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Gothix If gear is human readable or we can inspect other players, then you cannot keep anything as a secret. Furthermore, the streaming and video culture what we have in games nowadays also takes care of that everything can be analyzed afterwards. So someone needs to fight once against the team #1 and all the builds are revealed.
Armor skins are a thing in the Foundation, and will probably exist as cosmetic purchase items in the store.
I prefer human-readable armor, weapons and magical assets, but there's a tradeoff here between human-readability and a revenue stream to keep the servers running. Cashflow matters if we want the game to persist. It is what it is.
Perhaps the human-readable part can be camouflaged behind skins, but if we have option to inspect then it does not really matter. Yeah I agree that those streams and videos are important for the game and something which just cannot be avoided. And who even cares if meta builds are revealed? At least I do not, I rather watch those battles, and perhaps just for fun.
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Perhaps the human-readable part can be camouflaged behind skins, but if we have option to inspect then it does not really matter.
Still reckon there's a big difference between seeing it at a glance and having to click open an inspection menu then move it out of the way of combat then read it all while fighting and trying not to die.
Not sure if an inspection option is planned, but if implemented, would be interesting if the level of information revealed was linked to the perception attribute.
