Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities
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Just wanted to ask how will the life leech be solved.
In MOBA games (and Fractured should have moba-like gameplay) life leeching is ultimate weapon of carries (dmg dealers).
In case of DOTA2, Troll warlord or Mortred with satanic are impossible to get rid of (unless you hard disable them). Or worse - dmg tanks (Skeleton king, Naix), who can take the stun and then rape you. Then we have SMITE - ranged carries with life leech are godlike (only counter is reducing of life leech).Even old games Like Diablo II (in old versions - like 1,09 i think) had to weaken lifeleech, as it was too strong - in duel tweaker barb vs BvBer you had like 0,0% chance to win, even if you had like 8000hp agains opponents 2500 hp because of his huge damage + life leech.
In newer games like GRIM DAWN leech was also toned down and some enemies were immune to it - with enough leech you could just facetank them and wait till you destroyed them. Path of Exile has nice life leech however - leeching is not instant, it heals you slowly. Or you CAN leech instantly, but CAN´T regen health - that´s propper approach for horizontlal game imo (some pro for some con).
Will there be some limitation / procentual cap on leeched magical damage or weapon enchantments; will life leech be dependant on any attribute (except damage) and will any weapon have life leech as passive ability?
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Life leech makes sense in a game like dota (where it adds strategy to the lanning phase) or single player rpg (where you don't have a healer with you), but not so much in a larger scale game such as Fractured which is supposed to be played in groups. To make solo viable, they could add a skill which consumes the body of a dead monster to recover HP/MP, but can only be used out of combat.
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@Razvan but what about oldschool mmorpgs like WoW that had class with life draining attacks - I´d let it stay in game, as it´s harder to use (if it´s aimed) and not as reliable as life regen or self heals (life leech spell might get resisted and you´re read). Imo it just needs balance as much as permastun possibility (high attack speed build with dual maces and high charisma).
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You are right that life leech is a an old and well incorporated concept in RPGs, but I feel it won't be so relevant here, unless it heals a considerable (broken) amount of HP per hit. Vamp/life leech made more sense in oldschool mmos because they were less aoe-heavy (which imo was more fun in pvp, but more boring in pve).
PS: Since you mention CC-chains, I also want to know the dev's opinion on this matter. Same with damage reflect in aoe situations.
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@Razvan If i remember correctly, devs stated you can chain stuns... which is IMO broken as the first guy to land aoe stun in team vs team situation wins the fight for team (even if SAVES are taken into consideration).
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@asspirin said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
@Razvan If i remember correctly, devs stated you can chain stuns... which is IMO broken as the first guy to land aoe stun in team vs team situation wins the fight for team (even if SAVES are taken into consideration).
if so that'll be the first thing complained about. it's always the first thing complained about and usually the hardest for devs to fix.
@Prometheus we need some combat specifics spotlights. some communications on game mechanics in more detail.
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@asspirin said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
@Razvan If i remember correctly, devs stated you can chain stuns... which is IMO broken as the first guy to land aoe stun in team vs team situation wins the fight for team (even if SAVES are taken into consideration).
In an aoe heavy game it's absolutely broken indeed.
On the other hand, maybe they plan to go oldschool and focus on single-target spells rather than aoe, since CC-chains are not as bad there.Anyway, just like Jetah said, the devs should talk more about what they plan to do with the combat system. I'm mostly interested in: how fights will go? Big aoe CC and big aoe damage or single target CC on key people and focus fire? Do all CC always land or has a hit chance? Small healing over time or big burst heals? Single target or aoe heals? Do we have resurrects? What about buffers: in older MMOs most people had a buffer slave - will this be the case in Fractured as well?
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Anyone can pop a healing spell on their bar, and each spell is going to have 3 versions.
I'd be surprised if certain spells dont gain utility instead of damage type change, such as slows life steals burst in to dot
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@Xzoviac said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
Anyone can pop a healing spell on their bar, and each spell is going to have 3 versions.
I'd be surprised if certain spells dont gain utility instead of damage type change, such as slows life steals burst in to dot
There are some restrictions. plate with magic, blunt weapons with bleeding dot.
And anyway, if you don't have a weapon with matk bonus, it makes little sense to have a healing spell unless it consumes very little mana. Now this raises the question of how will damage dealers will high matk be balanced if they can effectively use healing spells? The more I talk with you on the forums, the more I start to think that this is going to be the first game I switch from tank/mdps to nuker/necro.
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@Razvan said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
@Xzoviac said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
Anyone can pop a healing spell on their bar, and each spell is going to have 3 versions.
I'd be surprised if certain spells dont gain utility instead of damage type change, such as slows life steals burst in to dot
There are some restrictions. plate with magic, blunt weapons with bleeding dot.
And anyway, if you don't have a weapon with matk bonus, it makes little sense to have a healing spell unless it consumes very little mana. Now this raises the question of how will damage dealers will high matk be balanced if they can effectively use healing spells? The more I talk with you on the forums, the more I start to think that this is going to be the first game I switch from tank/mdps to nuker/necro.I would like to go necromancer too, I'm hoping rock paper scissors style combat with each type weak to another
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@asspirin nah we will get cc immunity or reduction of it in some sort, prometheus stated that in the q&a with oxfurd iirc, they also tuned down earthquake immediatly after we abused it a bit
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In the few early tests I've done, those melee stuns felt quite powerful
but things will get balanced.
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@Shivashanti Then Im glad I was wrong
Having this superlong aoe stun with few pets might be just enough to end fight (considering cc could be chained) and ganks would be superstupid (1st stun from invis is GG).
Ill have to hear the whole chat between them...or just wait how they´ll deal with it as Prometheus probably didn´t present final solution yet. Thanks and sorry for misinformation.However we went offtopic - I´m still curious about life leech.
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The biggest issue in life leeching in every game as far as I'm concerned is it always leaches a percentage instead of a static amount; except in said case of WoW. WoW had a static life leach which is what made it perfectly fine, it was also a channeled spell which made it riskier to use. Sure, it scaled with stats, but it didn't scale with "damage" as your other examples did. To reference Diablo III, they completely removed life percentage leech and just kept life on hit/kill.
As long as they keep it a static formula and not "you gain x% life for all damage you do, ever" then it should be fine. And if it's not, it just requires tweaking the formula until it feels right.
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@Manaia
This is not completely fair either as it favors characters with fast attack speed.
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If it's channeled spell with fix channel time, then attack speed isn't a factor.
Or if it's somehow capped how much you can maximum drain in time period. For example, life can be drained only once per 2 seconds, and if your weapon attacks faster, then hits that land in between those 2 seconds do not drain anything.
Or if weapons drain based on attack speed, and faster weapons drain less per hit then slow weapons, so it's balanced.
So for example, if draining is a spell, it could be channeled and drain a fixed amount, during channeling time.
If draining is enchant on weapon, then it could drain fixed amounts based on weapon attack speed, with each hit.
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@Gothix said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
If it's channeled spell with fix channel time, then attack speed isn't a factor.
Or if it's somehow capped how much you can maximum drain in time period. For example, life can be drained only once per 2 seconds, and if your weapon attacks faster, then hits that land in between those 2 seconds do not drain anything.
Or if weapons drain based on attack speed, and faster weapons drain less per hit then slow weapons, so it's balanced.
So for example, if draining is a spell, it could be channeled and drain a fixed amount, during channeling time.
If draining is enchant on weapon, then it could drain fixed amounts based on weapon attack speed, with each hit.
this is why i keep begging for a combat/spell spotlight.
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@Razvan said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
@Manaia
This is not completely fair either as it favors characters with fast attack speed.Which part isn't fair? The part where they're casting drain life? If they're casting that, they're not casting harder hitting spells. Combat will likely ALWAYS favor people with attack speed, it doesn't have to be "fair" just as long as it's not game breaking or overpowered. Just because they're draining life doesn't mean they're draining a lot of life. It could be a 100 damage drain and heal vs other abilities that hit for significantly harder.
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@Manaia
Usually life leech for spells and physical damage are treated differently. Besides you compare a spell that is meant to replenish your HP while damaging the enemy to a feature that offers passive healing based on the damage done for melee weapons.And no, combat doesn't always favor people with attack speed - if it worked that way, there was no point in 2h weapons. Replenishing a flat amount of HP per hit favors weapons with higher attack speed.
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@Razvan Imo in most arpg attack speed >>> big damage numbers. Grim Dawn, Diablo II (attack speed was necessary for max attacks during ww), Path of Exile (there are few build favouring huge dmg over attack speed (earthquake, shield charger), but noone plays them
), in all these speed is the key.@asspirin nah we will get cc immunity or reduction of it in some sort, prometheus stated that in the q&a with oxfurd iirc, they also tuned down earthquake immediatly after we abused it a bit
---> lets just hope not only stuns but all other disables wil share the reduction (stun ti hext to perify ).
P.S.: I hate fast attacking builds.
