Intemization system
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I've read posts about knowledge system and skills but what about itemization progression?
Any update about item ranks or items special abilities like skills multiplier etc?
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@j4po We know very little information in that regard.
We do know that there is very limited item grading. Using wood as a base produces worse armor than using dragon scales, to spitball an example, but the differences, while apparent, aren't necessarily big. Again, the devs have said that a player, in their first minute, has some chance to fight a veteran and win, assuming the newbie is very skilled, and the vet is not.
We do know that no equipment will provide a +x to a stat - given the hard limits on our statistics, that is far too broken a benefit. What we have had, as examples, are % bonuses to specific skils, skill types, and schools - this armor gives you a +5% damage to martial arts skills, to make up an example. We're also pretty sure that there will be trade-offs - that +5% comes with a -1 to defense compared to a comparable armor that just does defense (again, to just make up an example. each bonus' "weights" and "balances" aren't known, and are likely to be a major point of game balance). It has been suppositioned that derived stats - move speed, health and mana regen, conversation bonuses, luck, and carrying capacity, to name a few, may also be potential benefits.
Lastly, we know that some objects can be enchanted, and then applied to equipment - gems are the assumed object, and that equipment will have some limit to how many gems can be applied. We do know that at least some of these benefits will be permanent. We supposition that these benefits will be similar to normal armor effects - if you can get +5% damage to martial arts via armor, you can get +x% to martial arts via an enchanted gem as well. We don't know if the value will be lesser, or come with a similar balancing weakness.
There is some expectation, though no actual information, that most PvE drops will be materials, rather than equipment, with the assumption being that it's easier (And better for a player driven economy), to have general mats that anyone can use/buy/steal, rather than a lot of potentially useless gear clogging a very limited inventory space (not that the materials won't clog it up, too, just that they are more versatile).
It has also been suppositioned that making armor at higher skill levels gives the maker better control over what benefits and drawbacks a particular piece of equipment gives - like, a gi may carry a potential benefit to 5 or 6 different things (only 1 of which will manifest), but a Master tailor can limit it to 2 possible outcomes - each outcome has 5 potential negative balancers, but a Master tailor can eliminate 3 of them. So instead of wasting time making 40 or 50 gi on average to get the right combination of effects and drawbacks, a Master needs only make 3.
In total, we believe, though all things can change at this point, that while no particular equipment piece will be "better" than any other within grade, objectively speaking, that each piece will be better and more effective for a certain build and play-style, and it's up to the player to find/make the best armor for their needs.
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Crafting an high level gear could be very time-consuming if we consider all the different aspects involved in the process: farming the right (possible rare) materials, bring them to a master crafter and hope that he will forge the piece with the stats we're interested in (that may require many attempts), then enchant it with gems (that I think we'll have to find somewhere also).
If the gap between an high level item and an entry level one will be small then the efforts needed for crafting the top tier one will be too much, meaning that few people will invest so much time to have just a little advantage.
On the other side if the gap is too big then people may be afraid of use the items that required them so much time and efforts to get, because with a full loot system they may lose it at their first death (may that be on PvP - where they get looted - or on PvE - where it may be very hard to recover it if they die in some "bad spots").If the system will remain on full loot, then the gap between the best and the worst gear should stay low OR the efforts to get the top should be not so big as it seems now on paper.
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@therippyone said in Intemization system:
It has also been suppositioned that making armor at higher skill levels gives the maker better control over what benefits and drawbacks a particular piece of equipment gives - like, a gi may carry a potential benefit to 5 or 6 different things (only 1 of which will manifest), but a Master tailor can limit it to 2 possible outcomes - each outcome has 5 potential negative balancers, but a Master tailor can eliminate 3 of them. So instead of wasting time making 40 or 50 gi on average to get the right combination of effects and drawbacks, a Master needs only make 3.
@lightspoon said in Intemization system:
Crafting an high level gear could be very time-consuming if we consider all the different aspects involved in the process: farming the right (possible rare) materials, bring them to a master crafter and hope that he will forge the piece with the stats we're interested in (that may require many attempts), then enchant it with gems (that I think we'll have to find somewhere also).
But... there is no rng in the game, so it can´t work like this
When you craft a item you get certain stats, those won´t change even when you craft it 1k times.There is no "high level" gear, there is no such thing as quality, tear or whatever in the craft system. You have a recipe, you have materials -> you can craft it. Nothing more to it.
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@eurav What I mean was: there will be materials more rare than others, probably also item's recipe harder to acquire than others (and for which crafters will ask more for their services). If such gear is too much similar to an easy-to-obtain one, why people should put efforts into it instead of just getting a "regular" one?
There will be a difference between gear's type, in a way or another. What I was thinking is how a full loot system may impact the design about gear in the game.
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@eurav said in Intemization system:
But... there is no rng in the game, so it can´t work like this
When you craft a item you get certain stats, those won´t change even when you craft it 1k times.There is no "high level" gear, there is no such thing as quality, tear or whatever in the craft system. You have a recipe, you have materials -> you can craft it. Nothing more to it.
EDIT: okay, Specter deep-6'd the tier levels more recently than what I was working from, statement retracted
Also, there is some rng - there is no rng in drops, specifically - which is another reason people are guessing that most drops will be materials.
there are some rolls, on things like damage, for example.The smithing idea was more or less a guess, as noted, based on needing something for a lv 3 crafting skill to effect, which also matches the low rng ideal by limiting rng through mastery.
I'm not sure why you think that a particular gear can only have 1 particular stat array - that implies that we're going to have several thousand "different" recipes. Now, that isn't unworkable - a system like Elder Scroll's alchemy, where different ingredients provide different effects, and by using multiple ingredients, you can pick for a specific effect through common natures, comes to mind - and I wouldn't mind it, strictly speaking, but it does add a lot of complexity to creation, for good or ill.
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@therippyone said in Intemization system:
I'm not sure why you think that a particular gear can only have 1 particular stat array
Because Japoco said that in a Q&A video.
You have a recipe and you have materials for a recipe (wood, stone, metal, whatever). So if you e.g. have a longsword recipe, you can craft the item with wood, which will result in a Wooden Longsword, which has specific stats. No matter how often you craft it, it will have the same stats. When you craft the item with stone, you will get a Stone Longsword, which has it´s own stats (will differ from the one crafted with wood). But if you craft 1k stone swords, all of them will have the same stats / attributes.@therippyone said in Intemization system:
The smithing idea was more or less a guess, as noted, based on needing something for a lv 3 crafting skill to effect, which also matches the low rng ideal by limiting rng through mastery.
There is no level system in the crafting system. Either you know a recipe or you don´t.
Explained here:
The thing with no levels, is somewhere before that.
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Item progression is horizontal. The idea is that gear doesn't get stronger as you play, you just specialize your gear more to fit your build, and acquire a larger variety of equipment to deal with more situations.
Fractured also has survival mechanics that gear is supposed to play a big role in. Wearing platemail in a desert will probably not be a wise decision, and wearing rags in winter while trekking across a tundra will probably end with you freezing to death.
@therippyone said in Intemization system:
We do know that no equipment will provide a +x to a stat - given the hard limits on our statistics, that is far too broken a benefit. What we have had, as examples, are % bonuses to specific skils, skill types
I would say we don't even know that much. We have a pretty good idea that equipment won't add attributes but it could very well add stats like dodge chance, crit chance, resistances, mana regen etc. This image is shows off planned stats. I haven't seen anything to suggest equipment will modify skills but it's a possibility.
There is some expectation, though no actual information, that most PvE drops will be materials, rather than equipment
It has also been suppositioned that making armor at higher skill levels gives the maker better control over what benefits and drawbacks a particular piece of equipment gives - like, a gi may carry a potential benefit to 5 or 6 different things (only 1 of which will manifest), but a Master tailor can limit it to 2 possible outcomes - each outcome has 5 potential negative balancers, but a Master tailor can eliminate 3 of them. So instead of wasting time making 40 or 50 gi on average to get the right combination of effects and drawbacks, a Master needs only make 3.
As Eurav pointed out, it was said in the crafting Q&A that there are no crafting levels or ranks and that there is no RNG involved in crafting at all. Recipes will produce the same item every time, assuming you're using the same materials, and the only limit to crafting is what recipes your stats allow you to use.
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Alright, I'm apparently an ijit. Sorry folks.
Now, I will argue that even a +1 to a single stat on 4 pieces of equipment (hat, clothes, weapon, shield - a bare minimum of equipment) gives an effective 8 to 16 creation points, depending on the stat level, a ~6.6-16% increase over a created character - I don't see how that makes any sense in respect to avoiding having a veteran wipe the floor with a new player - but that's just me.
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@therippyone said in Intemization system:
Now, I will argue that even a +1 to a single stat on 4 pieces of equipment (hat, clothes, weapon, shield - a bare minimum of equipment) gives an effective 8 to 16 creation points, depending on the stat level, a ~6.6-16% increase over a created character - I don't see how that makes any sense in respect to avoiding having a veteran wipe the floor with a new player - but that's just me.
I don´t understand what you are even talking about
But we don´t know if and with what gear we start, but since you should be able to join your friends from game start, I am guessing we will start with some minimum gear.
And the comparison was made between a veteran, who can´t play und does not know what he is doing, versus a beginner that is mechanically gifted. So all they are saying is "if somebody is bad, and you can outplay them, you are not going to lose just because of the gear difference. You can actually win."
I mean the easiest comparison would be a veteran playing a meele playstyle without any gap closers, and a newbie playing ranged. Does not need too much skill to be able to win that. Does not matter if he has 20% mehr atk, health, def, whatever when he can´t play the game.
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@eurav Okay, so - we start with 100, or 120, creation points to make our characters. If you have gear gives +4 to a stat in total, and your stat was 10, it goes to 14 - a shift that would cost 8 points if done through the character creation mechanism. In a human, that's 8/120, ~6.6% improvement. if you get a +4 on top of an 17, that's a 21, that's worth 16 points, (and nets you the bonus for having a 20 or more). On anything non-human, 16/100, 16% boost. ergo, a range of ~6.6%-16% statistical bonus over a new player using starting gear.
My point was, this seems like a significantly bigger advantage than I think is reasonable. Strength isn't just damage, it's armor rating, armor equipment, health, and carry capacity. Intelligence isn't just spell damage, it's mana pool, mana regen, it's magic resistance and spell cooldown. And the devs have established that a +5 (temporary) to a stat is difficult to come by - meaning it should also be noteworthy. To hand someone a permanent +4 seems...nonsensical, in that lens.
Your point about an incompetent meleeist versus a ranged fighter who knows how to stay away from another person is reasonable, but not quite apropos - For one thing, I'm not sure how someone would get to the best gear for a certain stat in the game without having at least one trick to deal some damage to a ranged fighter - there's incompetent, and then there is "can't actually play the game." Also, it stacks the deck significantly in the new player's favor with factors that aren't skill-based - the scenario isn't "I played better, so I won," it's more "I'd have to actually screw-up in order to lose."
My mental example is 2 players using similar ideas - 2 meleeists, 2 archers, 2 wizards, with the vet playing in a very blah sort of way - a tool kit full of damage, for example, with a set order of use - no imagination, no prediction, no response, just "do the thing and win" in essence, something that works against limited ai encountered in PvE; versus someone who knows how to pvp - how to predict opponents well, how bait them, and how to punish, who took some utilities and skills that, individually, aren't as impressive, but give flexibility and mutual support to the other skills in play - someone who knows what they are doing, and can actively capitalize on the opponent's moves and mistakes. Both are successful players, but it's clear which one should win in a direct fight, all things being equal "enough."
And I don't know that a +4 in a stat is too imbalanced to fit that criteria.Now, I don't know if it isn't, either, of course - no hard numbers means we all cry at this point in the discussion. It's within the realm of possibility that +1 strength means a +10% life bouns, damage reduction, and damage bonus (or, +40% in total for each - aka, hella broken to have on a permanent basis) - something so one-sided that the new player can't possibly win. Conversely, it might be +1% per, which is more or less a non-issue (and makes anyone who takes a 21 in strength at creation a complete fool).
Now, if we assume a creation point is worth the same, universally, despite the varied prices to up a statistic, we get the top end benefit to be something like 12.5-16%. To take the intelligence example - spells do 12.5-16% more damage, the veteran mage takes 12.5-16% less damage from spells, and can cast 12.5-16 spells to their opponents 10 (assuming all the spells have the same cast/cool down times), if you apply that benefit universally. On that basis, I'd say our new mage player is in a heck of a lot of trouble. Maybe not insurmountable trouble, but deep, deep trouble. would that be too one-sided, invalidating the premise of "skilled newb being able to take a talentless vet?" - don't know, but it seems likely. If it's more +16% damage, 8% resist, 4 more spells per 10, then it's closer to balanced, enough that I'd probably say it's within the limits of plausibility. @Gothix probably has a better feel for this sort of thing.
And, of course, it goes without saying that, if we have more equipment that can give a +1 to a statistic - rings, boots, amulets - or if a stat boost can be more than +1, then all of these issues get so much worse. Statistics are powerful in this game, because they touch on so many aspects. The balancing factors would have to be truly heinous to match the benefits.
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The "skilled newb" that win against a "incompetent veteran" is a claim many games had already made in the past and have almost never be true: unless we're speaking of extreme difference in skill, a veteran should at last know the basic of the game and have a decent advantage thanks to all the time and the gear he farmed with time, while the newb has none of this.
If the difference given by the gear is at max a 5% (just to say a number) it may be true that the newb will win, but otherwise it seems unrealistic because the gap in health, mana, regen and everything else will simply be too much to overcome by someone who have little to none knowledge of the game itself.Here come again what I was saying about how much gear can give an advantage, but I suppose that we don't have enough information at this point to make any real statement on the argument. Let's wait at last the Alpha 1 to see something.
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I got to be honest I am not entirely thrilled with the concept in general from the standpoint that a new player fresh to the field should not be on par with someone that has put in hundreds of hours, blood, sweat, tears and other bodily fluids into the game and is geared appropriately, especially in a game where that same new player can KILL that veteran player and rob them of their equipment.
This can of worms would begin to become a nuisance because 1: The veteran gear would become easy to obtain for people that have put in almost no effort into the game. 2: flood the market with high quality gear for stupidly cheap price because the vet players would have to remake their gear only to be robbed again.. It sucks, but it could happen.
Point is, I understand skill and reflexes in battle are key, especially to prevent the god awful ganking and despirited griefing other games suffer from, but it is worse I think to allow the bedrock players to suffer because people complain about those same vets that 'own' them. There is an endgame boredom factor there that must be taken into account. I'm guilty of doing it myself.. of course it helps if you revive them afterwards, have a chuckle, let them KEEP their gear and items.. and the community is fine for it.
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It's too early to theory craft with any precision right now, without having some hard numbers and game info from an actual playing and testing.
I'll just say that I hope that game keeps new players and veterans at competitive play field in PvP, without much power gap between them. It provides more challenge, more fun PvP engagement, and more fun overall.
Veteran players will indeed have some advantage, some reward for their time investment, but this reward shouldn't come as an advantage in PvP. Advantage in PvE? Sure. And they will have that.
Multiple gear sets and multiple skill decks to be able to engage in so many more PvE encounters a lot more easily than new players that still have to grind out all those options.
But PvP should remain balanced. St least I hope that it will.
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@lightspoon said in Intemization system:
The "skilled newb" that win against a "incompetent veteran" is a claim many games had already made in the past and have almost never be true: unless we're speaking of extreme difference in skill, a veteran should at last know the basic of the game and have a decent advantage thanks to all the time and the gear he farmed with time, while the newb has none of this.
If the difference given by the gear is at max a 5% (just to say a number) it may be true that the newb will win, but otherwise it seems unrealistic because the gap in health, mana, regen and everything else will simply be too much to overcome by someone who have little to none knowledge of the game itself.That depends on if the newb is in a team with decent leadership. In World of Tanks, I saw a top-of-the-line player and excellent caller take a team of effective newbs to crush much better opponents with roughly equivalent (if not better) gear.
So, if a newb player is nearly there on gear, being in a guild with a good raid leader/caller may make all the difference.
Still not sure how I feel about everything being linear; we'll see.
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@target said in Intemization system:
Fractured also has survival mechanics that gear is supposed to play a big role in. Wearing platemail in a desert will probably not be a wise decision, and wearing rags in winter while trekking across a tundra will probably end with you freezing to death.
I’ve missed this part.
Sounds like Zelda BOTW Mechanic.
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@Roccandil Back when I tried Heroes and Generals, had a game similar to that... ended in our mangled tins cans limping proudly while the bodies of our MUCH higher level foes in ruins. All thanks to a guy in a french accent. It was glorious. Thanks for the reminder of that.
@J4po Yeah, the gear we equip is supposedly going to impact our characters as much as the environment in much of the way @Target put it.
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@therippyone
since "Most bonuses given by an attribute grow exponentially with the score of the attribute" - Feature Spotlight #5, the difference would actually be higher.And... who says that there will be attribute stats on gear? Why would you put stats that define your character on your gear?
Your characters strengths and weaknesses should be decided on character creation and not.. lemme equip this mage gear and easily get 20 int because of it, so I am actually a great mage!
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@eurav said in Intemization system:
@therippyone
since "Most bonuses given by an attribute grow exponentially with the score of the attribute" - Feature Spotlight #5, the difference would actually be higher.And... who says that there will be attribute stats on gear? Why would you put stats that define your character on your gear?
Your characters strengths and weaknesses should be decided on character creation and not.. lemme equip this mage gear and easily get 20 int because of it, so I am actually a great mage!If I recall, it's been said the only other way to get +attributes is via talents, which is the only way for a Human to hit 20 (likely a +1 in two talent slots).
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@kellewic Well, it does not say the only way to get additional points is through talents, on the spotlight, but you are right. I am only hesitant because the max base value is 21, but they wrote this sentence:
"While affinity and caps might look relevant to nerds only, they’re not. Most bonuses given by an attribute grow exponentially with the score of the attribute – that is, points allocated from 20 to 25 are far more effective than points allocated from, say, 10 to 15,"
So I wonder, how to get to 25? 21 + 2 still is only 23, but then again maybe those races can get a +4 on their preferred stat with the talen tree, since the +2 was not mentioned for a specific race.
They also said: "Moreover, each race and family (besides Humans) has an affinity with a specific attribute (highlighted in blue in the table above), which makes that attribute easier to increase." so maybe this is why you can get 25?
