Concerns related to the attributes
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I have few concerns and questions related to attributes where I would like to know what is planned from developers behalf but I am also interested to hear players opinions as well.
Is the current attribute system final or are we going to se some changes and improvements in the future? My main concern is that are we going to have a chance to reroll the attributes? If not then we might be kind of locked to play as a certain class and loose some freedom of choise.
I was also wondering, that could those attribute points just cost 1 point each? That would make the theorycrafting much more easier and would take away that change you will end up to have one point left which you can not use. At the moment the first two levels costs 3 points, then it decreases to 2 points and after level 15 it raises again to 3 points and eventually to 4 points. Could this system be more straightforward?
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@Tuoni The stat weights of the attributes follows how dungeons and dragons does it; the higher the value you go the more it costs. This is to encourage more balanced builds, or if you want to go all in on certain stats then it punishes the flexibility of it. With the ability to have multiple characters I don't see why rerolling attributes should be an option, if you're unsure of what to do you can make a more balanced build instead of a min-maxed build for your first character.
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I guess if needing to balance you will need to have equipment that adds to the attribute points you are lacking, but I agree that at some point into the exploration phase of the game you will end up in wishing you had some slightly different attribute set for specific spells/abilities to fit into your build in a more optimized way.
Still it is always fun to roll a new char to be better next time
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@Mudz said in Concerns related to the attributes:
I guess if needing to balance you will need to have equipment that adds to the attribute points you are lacking, but I agree that at some point into the exploration phase of the game you will end up in wishing you had some slightly different attribute set for specific spells/abilities to fit into your build in a more optimized way.
Exactly.
Still it is always fun to roll a new char to be better next time
Maybe in themepark MMOs but in sandbox games where the base idea is freedom it feels bad if you need to start with new character just because of bad choises you made at start or if you just want to try out something different.
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Pretty sure Jacopo mentioned in the last Q&A (or maybe the one before that), that everyone will get a free Attribute Reset and that Attribute Reset will be content of the Cash Shop. There will be a decent cooldown on the usage of that though
We will be able to get additional Attribute Points through gear and the Talent Tree but I think they hard cap at 25?
The only concerns I currently have about the system would be wether it is too simple and that the Attribute Points one currently gets might be a bit too many.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni The stat weights of the attributes follows how dungeons and dragons does it; the higher the value you go the more it costs.
It can be done other way as well. Even if the cost of levels would be 1 and 2 after a certain point it would be much better and then there won't be that wasted point.
With the ability to have multiple characters I don't see why rerolling attributes should be an option, if you're unsure of what to do you can make a more balanced build instead of a min-maxed build for your first character.
Like I already answered for Mudz, this a sandbox game not a themepark were rerolling characters should be a core. Think all the new players who have not tested the game in test phases and how much mistakes they will make at the character creation stage. They do not have the knowledge what would be the best solution or what they will actully end up to do in the game. And if I think this from my personal point of view, lets say I have used most of my points for strenght and constitution, and then I want to reroll for a caster after a year. I am quite sure that I do not want to start a new character just because of that. SBI did this mistake in Albion Online where it was made too hard to change the "class" and role or at least it was behind a long grind. Now they have made a change where you can drain the progression from a spear for example and move that to another weapon. This was a pure quality of life change to prevent players to quit the game because respeccin was made too hard.
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The more I play Alpha, the more the attribute system feels out of place (for reasons already described here). I'd consider the following:
- Use Albion's "you are what you wear" system, such that all gear innately provides attributes.
- Varying races get an innate multiplier to certain attributes, or just flat bonuses or penalties.
- Merge attributes into the talent tree system. Maybe even have unique racial talent trees (my favorite option! ).
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@Eurav said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Pretty sure Jacopo mentioned in the last Q&A (or maybe the one before that), that everyone will get a free Attribute Reset and that Attribute Reset will be content of the Cash Shop. There will be a decent cooldown on the usage of that though
Okay this sounds good or at least what there should be at minimum.
The only concerns I currently have about the system would be wether it is too simple and that the Attribute Points one currently gets might be a bit too many.
Could you open this up a little bit more? I do not quite get what you mean by this.
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Like I already answered for Mudz, this a sandbox game not a themepark were rerolling characters should be a core. Think all the new players who have not tested the game in test phases and how much mistakes they will make at the character creation stage. They do not have the knowledge what would be the best solution or what they will actully end up to do in the game. And if I think this from my personal point of view, lets say I have used most of my points for strenght and constitution, and then I want to reroll for a caster after a year. I am quite sure that I do not want to start a new character just because of that. SBI did this mistake in Albion Online where it was made too hard to change the "class" and role or at least it was behind a long grind. Now they have made a change where you can drain the progression from a spear for example and move that to another weapon. This was a pure quality of life change to prevent players to quit the game because respeccin was made too hard.
My biggest problem with free availability to reroll is you lose character identity and choice and just have a blank template. To me, that breaks a big part of any RPG. If you can just apply a blank template to any character, why have more than one character at that point? Or why have more than three if you want to try one of each race? Choice -should- matter. If you want to be a jack of all trades, put 13-14 points into every stat and you'd be perfectly able to pull that off WITHOUT breaking character identity. But if you're rolling around in full plate mail, sword and board, and the tankiest dude ever - you shouldn't be able to be in full cloth and the übernuts caster in 10 minutes.
Of course, just my opinion of an aging gamer that doesn't need instant gratification/change because of a choice I made earlier
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Like I already answered for Mudz, this a sandbox game not a themepark were rerolling characters should be a core. Think all the new players who have not tested the game in test phases and how much mistakes they will make at the character creation stage. They do not have the knowledge what would be the best solution or what they will actully end up to do in the game. And if I think this from my personal point of view, lets say I have used most of my points for strenght and constitution, and then I want to reroll for a caster after a year. I am quite sure that I do not want to start a new character just because of that. SBI did this mistake in Albion Online where it was made too hard to change the "class" and role or at least it was behind a long grind. Now they have made a change where you can drain the progression from a spear for example and move that to another weapon. This was a pure quality of life change to prevent players to quit the game because respeccin was made too hard.
My biggest problem with free availability to reroll is you lose character identity and choice and just have a blank template. To me, that breaks a big part of any RPG. If you can just apply a blank template to any character, why have more than one character at that point? Or why have more than three if you want to try one of each race? Choice -should- matter. If you want to be a jack of all trades, put 13-14 points into every stat and you'd be perfectly able to pull that off WITHOUT breaking character identity. But if you're rolling around in full plate mail, sword and board, and the tankiest dude ever - you shouldn't be able to be in full cloth and the übernuts caster in 10 minutes.
Of course, just my opinion of an aging gamer that doesn't need instant gratification/change because of a choice I made earlier
Even from RPG point of view we are talking quite small problem when compared how much QoL the attribute reset will offer to the players. If someone changes his/her attributes no-ones butt is hurt and those who want to roleplay are not forced to do so. So who loses here? That is right, no-one.
In Fractured players can not instantly change from class to another and they still need to unlock the proper skills. Therefore, it would be quite nice to use all the skillset you have unlocked and not just those which goes fine with your character creation attribute lottery.
I would say that in most cases that three characters is more than enough. I guess many people wants to test out humans, beastmen and demons. Some people might want to play in different guilds or they have a character with good and bad reputation. I can imagine that I will have a criminal alt which I use for ganking and other open world activities even my main character would be a law-abiding citizen (in Syndesia ofc). However, even I can imagine how some people uses multiple characters I would personally prefer just one, like New world will have only one character / realm / account.
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@Tuoni Some people like putting in the time and effort of planning a character, others would rather be able to correct their lack of planning in-game. It appears we're on opposite sides of this. And character identity is NOT a small problem in an RPG. You don't have to be a role player to still appreciate character identity.
And yes, once all the knowledge is attained, it's 100% possible to swap classes every 10 minutes depending on how attribute resetting is done. Also, just because you aren't min/maxed to USE a skillset doesn't mean you CAN'T use it. Which again, boils down to a jack-of-all-trades of having balanced stats vs min/maxing.
If they have attribute resets, character identity is lost. One solution to address this would be to make it a gradual thing; remove one attribute point to go into an attribute pool (so stat weights still apply) and being able to add one point a week or something. Then from a character identity standpoint it's a transition and effort, not as simple as "lol this build sux new build plx" and you're completely different.
If they don't have attribute resets, just make a balanced character if you don't want to knowledge grind on alts
Enchanting can help you hit those higher level stats.
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The cost per point increases by stat tiers. It does start at 1 attribute point/point. It just gets more expensive as you get above "average." Up to a maximum of 4? at the top end. I'm okay with that. Theory crafting is still pretty easy once you identify those breakpoints.
I think rerolling attributes should be expensive. It should be a meaningful and "rare" choice that is made. I don't like the idea that every character should be able to do everything. Group play should be leveraged to fill in those gaps.
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As it stands now, the game asks new players to decide their attributes before they can have any first-hand knowledge of the long-term ramifications of their choice.
That design inherently diminishes the meaning of that choice to a new player. How can they be expected to make an informed decision? Sure, they can read about attributes, and follow, safe, popular cookie-cutter guides, but until a player experiences the game for themselves, how can they really know what they're going to like best?
As to limitations preventing a single character from doing everything, I think that's better implemented via racial design. Even as it stands now, if players could freely reroll attributes at a campfire, they still couldn't go beyond the limitations of their race.
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@Roccandil The stats are fairly common among other RPG's, especially dungeons and dragons. Though we can't expect new players to know D&D, we can expect tooltips to explain what stats do and the new players ability to read what they do. They can create an informed decision based off of that, to the fantasy of how they'd like to build their character. If there are issues with ability balancing, that's a different issue than just straight up rerolling to be something else.
And they can experience the game on their first character to learn it, there's nothing wrong with that. That's literally how the gaming industry used to be - in Super Mario Bros. 2 (US Release) you didn't know the differences of each of the four characters - you chose the one that resonated with you. You could still beat the game with every character, they just had different perks. You can use another character (such as an alt) to get perks for specific levels if you wanted. It'd just be weird if Luigi had Princess Toadstool's hover perk! Or if Princess Toadstool had Luigi's flutter jump! It'd remove all sense of character identity and it wouldn't matter which skin you decided to use.
In the end, these viewpoints are on two different sides of the spectrum. Since it's an RPG though I'd -hope- that character identity is meaningful though.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
In the end, these viewpoints are on two different sides of the spectrum. Since it's an RPG though I'd -hope- that character identity is meaningful though.
I think I'd like the best of both worlds here. Either way stat reset is something that a lot of people started getting used to. I played some MMOs that outright didn't give you the chance to have a do-over. It wasn't so bad. I either sucked it up or made a new character. Progress on the character lost but I gained some knowledge(pun intended) for my new toon. I agree with @Mindark. A stat reset shouldn't be easy to come by at all. You need to feel the weight every time you do it or stats won't mean a thing in Fractured. They would just be another requirement to fit your build instead of being something you went through the process of thinking of. It's easy to spam stat resets. It's fulfilling to make the right decision
I played with a guy in A2T2 that had no idea what kind of character to make. He put a lot into vit/con (forgetting what we have) and spread out the rest. He progressed through our playthrough using mage skills and guess what? He was comparably a lot weaker than my mage with 20 int. He didn't care though and just kept playing, like completely unphased, didn't even ask for a stat reset despite seeing the obvious difference in the damage we deal. He really wanted to commit to the decision he made during character creation. This is just one guy but they are out there. Not to even mention that he's a complete noob to MMOs. Which kind of says something about the mentality of some people.
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@Roccandil said in Concerns related to the attributes:
The more I play Alpha, the more the attribute system feels out of place (for reasons already described here). I'd consider the following:
- Use Albion's "you are what you wear" system, such that all gear innately provides attributes.
- Varying races get an innate multiplier to certain attributes, or just flat bonuses or penalties.
- Merge attributes into the talent tree system. Maybe even have unique racial talent trees (my favorite option! ).
This would be a really good option, and with gear and talent tree nodes players can affect on their characters attributes (positive and negative way). Race modifiers can still be there but at least then the gaps between attributes would be more bearable without extra differencies because of the character creation. At the moment we have a system where the character creation is much closer to themepark than sandbox MMORPG.
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I stopped reading thru this thread so forgive me if someone already pointed this out but core to the MMORPG genre is the party. No one is going to be good for everything and there are always going to be situations where you dont have the right skills for the job. This is why you party up. So other PCs can cover the areas you lack and vice versa. It shouldn't be about rolling stats. It should be about finding the correct party balance for the job at hand.
"Say DM, we dont really have a rogue in the party and this dungeon looks like its filled with traps. Would it be ok if I just rerolled my PC?'
DM smiles "sure go ahead and do that"
An ancient red dragon appears...
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@Gibbx MMORPGs are not just about parties and that is actually quite common but also biased argument. It is also quite weird to presume that people should settle to play a specific role if they are bored or they want to try something else out. In matter of fact, this attribute matter has very little or nothing to do with group content.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni Some people like putting in the time and effort of planning a character, others would rather be able to correct their lack of planning in-game. It appears we're on opposite sides of this. And character identity is NOT a small problem in an RPG. You don't have to be a role player to still appreciate character identity.
Attributes are a small part of the character identity and from RPG point of view e.g. character progression is the core. On top of that, if the attribute reroll is optional, then everybody should be happy.
And yes, once all the knowledge is attained, it's 100% possible to swap classes every 10 minutes depending on how attribute resetting is done. Also, just because you aren't min/maxed to USE a skillset doesn't mean you CAN'T use it. Which again, boils down to a jack-of-all-trades of having balanced stats vs min/maxing.
Sure you can play as a mage with 8 in intelligence but I am sure you will be quite uneffective. In addition, Imagine how squishy would be a tank with 10 in strength and constitution, someone gives a bad glance and his dead. And what it comes to that jack of all trades, like mentioned before most players do not know what they end up to do in the game and what kind of role they will be most interested to play with. That is why character creation stage is a very dangerous place to lock (in practice) players in certain class and role choises. In themeparks this would be okay, but in sandbox games this is something that should be taken account.
One solution to address this would be to make it a gradual thing; remove one attribute point to go into an attribute pool (so stat weights still apply) and being able to add one point a week or something. Then from a character identity standpoint it's a transition and effort, not as simple as "lol this build sux new build plx" and you're completely different.
I am pretty sure that those who cares of the character identity from attribute change point of view are a niche. Attribute points transaction system like you described could work, however, it would feel really bad to wait this final transaction happen after weeks or even months. So I prefer the system what Eurav mentioned which most likely what devs have already planned. I am not asking to have a chance to change the points everytime I want to even I would not be against that either. Some kind of cooldown could be nice like once in the month or something like that. The final decision of this matter should be based on player feedback and what is evaluated to be the most reasonable (perhaps compromised) solution to minimize player frustration and guarantee customer satisfaction.
If they don't have attribute resets, just make a balanced character if you don't want to knowledge grind on alts
Enchanting can help you hit those higher level stats.Or if they do not have attribute reset there is also other option some people will grab, it is quit.
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Perhaps, cash shop can offer purchase of full attribute reset.
Meanwhile in the world, through exploration, challenges (or whatever) players would have a small chance to find "translocate 1 attribute point to another place" scrolls.
Those scrolls should be character bound in that case, and have a limit how much you can have at once (like 3 or something) so you can not hoard them, perhaps even an expiry timer in addition to that. And with a low enough chance of getting those, "purchase attribute reset from cash shop" would not lose purpose, while still offering players to transfer a point here and there for "free" through gameplay.
