Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users
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@lovechildbell said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
(...) having "the best" stats and thats not who this game is made for.
There is a planet specifically dedicated to PvP, so I'm not sure how valid that statement might me. You are right in that one can play 'without that mindset' just fine as Beastman, but there's still other races that might not have that comfort.
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@logain in a game of rock paper scissors which one is "best"
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@lovechildbell said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
@logain in a game of rock paper scissors which one is "best"
If game will be rock paper scissors, I, and many others, will be out of here faster than you can say rock.
@gothix said in NO tank mages:
There are no classes but there are primary attributes that are unchangeable after you select them on start, and each attribute is better fitting to certain school.
This is why schools of magic should be balanced between each other.
So perhaps we shouldn't be saying a "mage" should be balanced with "warrior", but what we actually mean by this is that "conjuration school" should be balanced with "warfare school" etc. Schools are the ones that need to be balanced (and thus benefits that particular attributes bring as well, and not for example INT giving more benefits than PER), so any school is viable vs any school, so that schools do not end up being "rock paper scissor" to each other, because if that will be the case, then game will majorly suck.
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@gothix oh boy then you are asking for something that will be hella hard for them to make and balance, granted they could go the route every school can do everything but at that point why bother with the other schools. If they pull it off thou and have it not be bland then colour me impressed.
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You are assuming that everything is equal there though. There is no balance to compare it to at this time, and IF they haven't thought of this then Alpha 1 would ensure they saw the problem.
More likely, magic users will have higher cost abilities in general and lack as strong of a no-mana attack. Most likely magic users will need a little more learning to advance (probably be aligned around magic users likely to max that stat, while physical will aim for middling at best to maximize combat power.)
That, of course, is also assuming that the ideas of others (such as int bonus caps for learning at a given value or diminishing returns) don't make this effectively a non-issue on that front.
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That is an interesting suggestion, at least.
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We have similar discussion with @Gothix here: NO tank mages . Take a look
As I mentioned there, among other things, mages high on Int and low on Str will be very squishy
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@dybuk said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
high on Int and low on Str will be very squishy
Strength isn't going to make you tankier against anything that isn't directly doing damage to life. If you lose all your endurance then it probably won't matter how much life you have. What might be interesting though, is that strength will likely have synergy with skills that require you to sacrifice life, so strength might be important to builds using necromantic blood magic.
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@gothix said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
If game will be rock paper scissors, I, and many others, will be out of here faster than you can say rock.
all skill-based games are rock paper scissors, have fun with no games
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@fibs said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
all skill-based games are rock paper scissors, have fun with no games
No?
An amazing example of skill based, classless game that was amazingly well balanced regardless of what weapons you were using was original The Secret World (if you didn't play TSW, lets just simplify and say that weapons were the "classes" there, your current deck was tied to the weapon you were using at given moment).
Even if you were free to created so many permutations of decks, each weapon was generally balanced to any other weapon, and it was only up to you how good deck you were able to theory craft and apply. But best decks out there for any weapon were all balanced to each other, and you could do equally well using shotgun or elemental focus, for example.
No game, to this day, has matched TSW in deck building, mechanic complexity, theory crafting, and in skills and brain being so much more important than gear you were using (people in full blue could perform literally 500% than people in full epic, if they were smarter and more skilled).
Every game out there should look up to (original / not Legends) TSW when designing their skill trees and mechanics.
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There are other good examples with good MMOs not being rock / paper / scissors, but this one will suffice since it is THE best example.
And if you question if TSW was skill based, just ask around
learning curve was so steep that zerg of people gave up on game because it was simply too hard / it leaned on skill requirements way too much, and not many could efficiently play it (people got completely destroyed even by trash animals in forests). This is one of the reasons why Funcom created Legends TSW (complete game redesign, read SEVERE nerf to game complexity) in hopes they would attract wider player population (read kiddos with lesser skills).So please do not use statements such as (all skill-based games are rock paper scissors) if you only ever played few MMOs in your life, because if you played more decent amount, you would certainly see that there are a few that aren't.
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And if you wonder why am I not in TSW then. It's because Funcom completely shut down developing future content to original TSW, and are only working on TSW Legends now (completely nerfed version of the game). If original TSW was still alive, I would still be there (I have lifetime subscription).
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@Gothix man, I miss my leech healer in original TSW
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@gothix What about the fact mechanics will have their own counters? IE dot based damage build vs some one who can remove dots easily? That's a fairly hard counter mechanically speaking IMO but skill and mind games can make up the difference that part is true. So that begs the question why would you remove something from a stat and spread it to the others when you could just other theory craft/skill them?
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@lovechildbell as long as you can find stuff in one school that can work vs stuff from other school (while re working your deck) that's good. The point is that any school has stuff that can work vs any other school, and it will all depend on what you currently have in your deck.
Once the game would design particular school that has such deck that other particular school has NOTHING IN ENTIRE SCHOOL to be viable against that, and that school becomes perma scissors vs rock vs other school, THAT is bad.
Decks do not need to be balanced (it is impossible to balance out each individual deck), but SCHOOLS overall need to be balanced to each other.
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@gothix Fellow TSW vet - damn I miss that game. Chaos Pistoleer for general running around. I also agree that the balance was excellent. now, there were some builds that were better for some things, more than others - especially in pvp. You saw more dash/cc in the continious pvp map, but not in the king of the mountain, for example. However, even if that were the case, that didn't mean there was a superior build (or even 3 or 4 top builds) - I personally saw at least 12 builds in any given round, and they all "worked" in some ways, and were also counterable (and the counters had their own weaknesses) - it was a glorious mish mash of pyrotechnics and strategy impacting imperfectly all over the place.
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@gothix But you're not limited to schools. Whats the problem with splashing other schools to counter another?
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@lovechildbell said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
@gothix But you're not limited to schools. Whats the problem with splashing other schools to counter another?
Physically you are not limited to a single school (or 2 schools), but efficiency wise you kinda are, because you will only really be effective in schools that fit in with attributes you have selected on start and that you can't change during game play.
This is why this thread was started in the first place, because INT stat seemed too beneficial compared to other stats (benefits beyond spell efficiencies with affiliated magic schools - learning / progression speed). This concern had me start this thread in the first place.
This thread is discussion thread, hoping to bring attention to possible issues that were mentioned, issues that could come out of one particular stat (namely INT here) bringing more benefits to a player then other stats, working in favor of players focusing on particular schools being favored over players focusing on other schools.
Hopefully you understand an issue now, and the point of this thread.
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@gothix
sounds like other attributes should be used for certain magic groups or do what Eve Online did and split all spells/abilities between 2 attributes. So that your magic that requires INT could also require CON or it could be CON as the primary and INT as a secondary. With 2h melee STR could be how hard you hit but DEX could be how many times you can hit. So a high STR low DEX could be 1 or 2 hard hits but then you're waiting on resources to regen. [not exclusive to these 2 stats but something I thought of.] Staves could be CHA as a primary or secondary.
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@gothix I know what this forum thread is about. If we are gona go down that route what about potion usefulness being tied to con? Intimidation to str? Speed to dex? Luck to cha? Seriously thou what am I missing that makes charisma alter luck this one seems weird to me? But point is all the ones I mentioned could be argued that they be based on another stat or get tied to two much like how accuracy is tied to dex/per and item identification is tied to per/cha/int. Perception seems to be the only one that ties more then one of its benefits/negatives to other stats.
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@gothix said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
No?
Yes.
I guarantee The Secret World is also a rock-paper-scissors game. If it wasn't, it would just be a big numbers game, which is hardly skill-based.
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@fibs said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
@gothix said in Why Magic users will be OP compared to physical users:
No?
Yes.
I guarantee The Secret World is also a rock-paper-scissors game. If it wasn't, it would just be a big numbers game, which is hardly skill-based.
It was not. Whoever didn't play original secret world has effectively missed out on greatest MMO in history of gaming. And now it's shut down and gone forever because kids cried that it was too hard, and rather than bothering to get their skills up, they chosen to cry so that Funcom nerfs it. And secret world got shut down, and secret world Legends was born. Introducing nerfs across the whole game, and cash shop progression system.
This is our sad reality. 10 year old kids everywhere now, running across forums and crying (and many adults like wise), and no MMO is skill based anymore, or even if it starts like that, devs soon fall under pressure of kids crying on forums. Because money is king, and making games "instant gratification" products, brings in more players.
I'm sad you didn't get to try original TSW mate. You have no idea what you have missed out on.
