Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.
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@GamerSeuss
Following your assertion that the majority of players like RNG in their crafting I have done a cursory review of the most popular MMO games and their crafting systems to see which have RNG attached to the quality of goods created or have the possibility of having goods destroyed.WoW- 2.2 million players - crafting RNG? -no- Crafting is money by another name and find the recipe with grind.
Loss of item possible due to enchanting? -no-WoW classic- 1.1 million players. as above.
FF 14- 2.4 million players- crafting RNG? yes - Higher quality materials increase probablity of higer quality gear.
Loss of item possible due to crafting/enchanting? only if player decides to push it to that point.
Ability to change RNG to make it more probable to get higher gear or extend destruction point? Yes and multiple.Old School Runescape - 1.4 million players. Crafting RNG? no- Crafting is money by another name
RNG enchanting item loss? no-Elder scrolls online - 1 million players. Crafting RNG? no - crafting is money by another name.
Enchanting item loss ? noDo I need to go on?
Of the top 5 MMO games - by population- only 1 has a crafting system similar to the one in fractured and even that one still has far more safeties built into it than fractured does and has many ways to continuously improve your odds.
So by population 5.7 million out of 8.1 million - or 70%- of gamers seem to prefer crafting systems with no RNG and all of them do not have systems of arbitrary item loss during the process.
I could continue my data collection but feel no need until you put forward some effort beyond just declaring you are right.
If you have some other, relevant, and referenced, data to provide in counter to this to back your assertion that RNG crafting is in the majority then please bring it out.
Otherwise it would appear that your opinion is in the minority of MMO gamers. Not the majority as you have repeatedly asserted with no backing.
Data on populations: https://mmo-population.com/
Data on crafting systems from each of the individual games wiki pages.Back to the actual topic.
Here is an interesting site comparing different crafting systems pros and cons:
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/5-approaches-to-crafting-systems-in-games-and-where-to-use-them--cms-22628Working under the assumption that the devs included item loss and random chance to get excellent gear to increase the drain on resources for high quality/enchanted gear then surely a system that gives the desired results while at the same time producing the same -or greater- drain on crafting/enchanting resources would maintain the status quo.
Do people think that this is not the reason for having RNG in item creation and Item loss in enchanting?
Or do people think that my proposed ratios and exchange rate is not high enough to guarantee equivalent item scarcity?
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I admire your use of facts, shows someone willing to think out their arguments.
Some other facts:
WoW: Crafting is at best a tertiary aspect of the game, not even secondary in focus
Old School RuneScape: Does in fact use an RNG system in many aspects of its crafting. There is no Quality Level crafting system, but, when you cook, you have a chance to burn an item, up until the highest skill levels, and even then, some items never get a 0% burn rate, when you smelt Iron, you have a 50% loss chance, unless you get a magic item that cancels that, or use a spell to smelt instead. When you brew potions, the RNG comes in as to whether you get 3 dose or 4 dose potions, and really, enchanting in RuneScape is not crafting really, it's a upper level spell ability. The fact is, they use the RNG throughout their crafting system in a variety of ways, making it, of the games you mentioned, probably the most robust skiller game out. (and the main game I play when not Alphatesting Fractured)
You basically answer to the other games, WoW, Elder Scroll, Crafting is basically Money by another name, it is just a method to make profit. It's not really about the crafting. As to FF 14, I don't play that game, and actually haven't played WoW or EDO in awhile either for that matter, but really, are any of those games crafter-centric games, or is crafting merely a side Hussle to get funds and grind?
I will, however, take a look at FF 14 and see how their system works, and check back in on EDO (I hate WoW) after the Alpha is over, and make sure my info is sound.
I mainly speak from the Game Designer standpoint. I won't contest your numbers, however, your research as far as that goes is sound, and I don't have any hard numbers to back up my claim directly, unless you'd take numbers on gambling addiction and commonality of games of chance over other types of games in overall popularity.
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@OlivePit said in Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.:
I acknowledge your point Jacenson however at the moment one of the few ways you can reduce the odds of item destruction when enchanting is to use higher quality equipment -excellent- which makes it kind of a requirement if you intend to do any enchanting beyond one enchantment.
If the odds of loosing an item to enchanting destruction were not tied to quality or had some other way to help mitigate then the good quality items would see more value.
This is not true.
I regularly enchant my good quality equipment with double enchant. The failure chance is fairly low and quite manageable. Yes, it will sometimes happen that you destroy the item. It is one of the events that you have to react to, like missing a skill in pvp. I despise games which are too much dependant on RNG, where luck is your main factor, but this one clearly isn't one of those. This one holds just that little amount of RNG which makes it so you not only have to plan but also react. There are games where you suffer the RNG and games like this where you manage the RNG.Now, as I said a solution without RNG would still be good for me. Not as good as the current RNG one, but it surely wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. What is important though, is that the resource investment to create an higher quality item increase exponentially with the quality. With the current difference between a poor item and an excellent item, if a poor item requires 1 resource, the fine one should require 2, the good one 4 and the exceptional 8. Exceptional items should be luxury items and the norm should be between fine and good.
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That is basically what my original post was suggesting while also giving power to the city technology unlocks and bonusses from specialized crafting buildings.
Crafting at home can have the much higher cost but crafting at the specialized city crafting building keeps an advantage.FF 14's system where the more modified an item is the lower its durability is could be applied to fractured.
The more enchants and the higher power of enchants put on an item the more it reduces the items durability.This would mean that you -can- have that mage armor with 3 tier 2 enchantments, but it will have 60% less durability. Thus you get the extra power and effect at a cost of being able to use the item for a shorter time.
In high activity pvp this also may be desirable as you really want the best equip you can have and are not very concerned about its durability as you are going to loose it if you die and wont be running out with your highly enchanted but also fragile equipment on daily grinds, but for special occasions. Players can choose to spend the extra time and resources to constantly wear top tier paper thin equipment, but that is a choice and will help drive the economy should it be a popular one.
It would -however- reduce the rewards of pvp some. But with you only able to put items of 100% durability for sale in the market it's not like there is a black market for stolen/looted goods anyway. (I think there should be one tho)
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I had thought the same thing regarding the enchants and durability (but durability damage was partially RNG
) and stopped exactly for the reason that you can't trade items without full durability.Also, you introduced another hot topic there. Durabilty damage in pvp. Right now there isn't, so good equips just change hand, they never get destroyed.
A 25% durability damage on items when getting killed (not just knocked down) would be a good start IMO.
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Without inserting my less-than-informed thoughts about the question under discussion, I want to take this opportunity to reflect that this kind of discussion is EXACTLY what I love about the Fractured forum.
@OlivePit & @GamerSeuss don't agree, but they're staying civil and constructive - using their personal experience AND looking at available data to support their points.@spoletta & @Jacenson have made valuable contributions as well - I'm particularly intrigued by the 'recycling tech' idea for making use of lower-quality items generated by failed attempts at a higher quality product.
THANKS to everyone for teaching me! The Foundation points y'all earn for discussions like this are totally earned. I'm tagging @Specter to make sure he sees my kudos.
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This is an interesting topic~ I have issues with the current state of enchanting + the current gear crafting...wont touch on that here.
As for RNG while crafting equipment: @OlivePit used some great examples of very current MMO's with crafting systems. I'd like to list a few of the more notable MMO's or rogue-like games.
Archage: a crafting system relied heavily on grinding mats then RNG to 'upgrade' your gear further.
The RNG was getting the mats itself from open world, then dungeons then raids. At higher levels of upgrading gear (15/20) you have chances of lowering the grade up and down. (use to break the item).Path of exiles: a more gear drop game that relied on the RNG in gear drops + upgrade mats (more RNG). Crafting was mostly done for very end game players, most players never experience it. Normally if done right the gear always has value if you fail to attempt it being useful to yourself it's most likely still useful to someone else.
Ragnarok Online: RNG mostly around gather resources and cards. Once you grinding the shit out of the area you were rewarded.
Ultima Online: enchanting and crafting was mainly upgrading items with rare resources. failures could happen.
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Why these games? These games relied heavily on RNG back in the days for crafting and upgrading gear.
Over the years they've all updated their systems because player backlash.What the games did to change? They removed hardcore failure mechanic (losing gear) and opted into losing the resource's when upgrading or the enchant just not working, at the worse your gear loses one tier but could be upgraded back again.
Path of exiles is notable one that's doing this. The RNG in path of exiles has become to demanding that it gates 80% of their player base from ever reaching the final boss, let alone doing some mapping content( end game) (Harvest data league data: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2916050)
So in "path of exiles 2" their lookign to gut most of their RNG elements.So the point is wasted failures is generally not fun, maybe fun for the winners but not the losers.
In this case when you craft one item, that's it. that's the end of the road for that item and it's grade.I agree with peoples point (like spoletta's) in here where a system to force higher grades would be ideal. Give a lucky chances for the gamblers but also give that 100% chance to those who don't like to gamble and rather grind it out.
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Yeah, having BOTH the RNG system AND a way to force higher grade would be the best of both worlds for me. Not sure if it is worthy of attention though. For me the system is fine like this.
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bumping for visibility, and daily post XD
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RNG is the WORST game design anyone could do...
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Thank you for your valuable contribution.
Care to add some explanation on why you think that way?
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@BlueGoblin actually, RNG is pretty much what makes most games, GAMES, as opposed to just activities or puzzles. Boardgames have dice, Cardgames have the shuffle, Skill games have the regular chance of failure in any skill-based activity. Success means very little if there is no chance of failure, and thus, RNG is what makes a Game a GAME!
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@GamerSeuss said in Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.:
@BlueGoblin actually, RNG is pretty much what makes most games, GAMES, as opposed to just activities or puzzles. Boardgames have dice, Cardgames have the shuffle, Skill games have the regular chance of failure in any skill-based activity. Success means very little if there is no chance of failure, and thus, RNG is what makes a Game a GAME!
Chess and Go would like to chat...
RNG may be a game for some people, but not everyone (and most certainly not me!). I like games that are built on simple, deterministic rulesets, that allow emergent outcomes.
For me, RNG is just a form of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, looking for a different outcome, and I don't enjoy that. It makes thinking far less relevant.
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@Roccandil Actually, to serious players, neither Chess nor Go are considered games, they are considered Strategic Thought Exercises. They get sold/marketed as games, for sure, but their lack of any Random element pretty much precludes them from being real games so much.
The Word 'Game' does include a lot of subsets, including puzzles, activities, and simulations, but when you really come down to it, an actual game needs an element of chance.
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@GamerSeuss said in Alternative to crafting and enchanting RNG headache.:
@Roccandil Actually, to serious players, neither Chess nor Go are considered games, they are considered Strategic Thought Exercises. They get sold/marketed as games, for sure, but their lack of any Random element pretty much precludes them from being real games so much.
The Word 'Game' does include a lot of subsets, including puzzles, activities, and simulations, but when you really come down to it, an actual game needs an element of chance.
LOL. How was your latest tactical culinary exercise?
