Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?
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@OlivePit said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
A new player who has never tried balancing between all the options to create an optimized hot key bar for their desired game play style does not have that experience. Many of the videos I watched by players noted that lack of experience and felt unfairly penalized by having a low int which could not be altered except by 2 via expensive talent progression.
There will be limited possibilities to change your Attribute Points after character creation later in the game to counterplay that a bit.
@OlivePit said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
I see no counter to the power word stun/death when the enemy has max charisma other than also having max charisma.
Actually, when your opponent has max CHA, you can't do anything against it, because you would need more CHA to actually have a chance at a safe throw. Works both ways. I think CHA is the only "hard counter" that works like this atm, and I can say I am not a fan of it.
I have not really played much other than mage oriented builds so I can't really talk much about low INT builds, but since everyone here seems to associate INT with automatically higher resistance to mages spells... that's not really how it works.
The defensive stats INT directly gives are Willpower and Magic Resistance.
Magic Resist
To give a few numbers:
- 6 INT: -32 (-8%)
- 10 INT: 0 (0%)
- 18 INT: 64 (16%)
Tier 1 Enchantment = 60 Magic Resist
Tier 2 Enchantment = 120 Magic Resist
Tier 3 Enchantment = 240? Magic ResistSome specific gear is also already enchanted with T1 or T2 magic resistance, so the magic resist you would lose from not having INT is easily replaceable after creating your character.
If I am not mistaken, Magic Resistance also only works against ONE spell right now, which is Magic Missiles. While this most likely is a must have spell for mage oriented builds, you can also bascially counter that spell with high Willpower.
Willpower
Willpower, just like Fortitude, is a stat solely for safe throwing abilities.
- 6 INT: 90
- 10 INT: 150
- 18 INT: 270
- 20 INT gives a bonus of 100 Willpower
Now I am not sure about the % values, but if we assume a bit here, Magic Resistance and Willpower both cap at 1000. 1000 Magic Resistance = 74%, so 1000 Willpower might just be the same. From experience could be more though.
Tier 1 Enchantment = 25? Willpower
Tier 2 Enchantment = 50 Willpower
Tier 3 Enchantment = 100? WillpowerNot as drastic as Magic Resistance. You can get some extra Willpower from the Talent Tree (which you can't do for Magic Resistance), so you can also work around that a lot after character creation. Not to mention if you don't have enough CHA, it might just not even really do much for you.
It can save throw:
And then if you have enough CHA, you might also safe throw:
So for Willpower you need CHA to actually safe throw important abilities, wheras with Evasion and Fortitude you don't need anything extra.
Even if you max out INT, the protection you gain against those few spells is not that big.
Some spells INT does not help against
As for all the other deadly dps spells, INT does not protect you from at all, e.g.
to name a few.
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@GamerSeuss said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
@FibS And I didn't say 1 Skill builds, I said 1 skill to focus their style around.
So it was a wishy-washy non-statement you can backpedal on at will. Got it.
Every character still gets the same 8 hot button spots on their character, and even with minimal INT, you can fill all of those slots
With what? Literally random low-end garbage you never use, mostly because they all do magic damage and you have no INT?
You simply have to balance your memory points around the 1 or 2 skills you really focus on in a build.
And get your ass stomped not only by every 2nd and 3rd mob, but also by every objectively better character with more options, yes. That's the problem.
Yes, other advantages to high INT do exist, like higher resistances and bigger effects from some skills/spells, but that doesn't mean a Fighter type out there running with a 10 or 12 INT will automatically be suboptimal.
I like the part where you claim that low INT is not disadvantageous to a fighter but also passively accept that 10 INT is the bare minimum.
10 INT is not low. 10 INT is exactly the average. The game is designed around everything being calculated as a plus or malus from a stat of 10.
You can, technically, drop INT all the way to 4. The problem is that going under 10 will make any character unusable.
In fact, just about any stat you put lower than 10 will horribly cripple your character.
That's the problem: the game's stat system is an unbalanced, self-conflicting mess, and INT is the worst offender.
It would be better to have no stats at all!
I've never understood the Min/maxers anyway. It is generally more fun to go around and play a build that is fun and interesting [...]
Cut the crap. You know what isn't fun or interesting? A character who sucks so bad they're not playable. Especially characters with less than 10 INT, as they can only spam their auto-attack move and Shockwave over and over, and are therefore the definition of boring and monotonous.
Now, granted, I don't tend to play PvP, and the outlook for those who focus on PvP might be much more specialized to the point where having 3-5 of the heavier cost skills, as well as the higher resistances is vital for your survival, but I do know that clever fighters with the right timing when using abilities can often surprise 'powerhouse' opponents when they least expect it.
This is a mod-skirting way to insult players who "theorycraft" by implying they're stupid and relying on a powerful character to compensate for it.
... which is also admitting that high-INT characters are universally more powerful than low-INT characters, or else you'd have no reason to bring that up.
This vaporous blowharding about "be clever" this and "right timing" that is straight out of a Bruce Lee movie and is completely removed from reality. The truth is that any opponent who sees you only have 1 or 2 reliable moves will easily predict when and how you'll attack and swiftly murder you at a much higher rate than luck and randomness would permit for opponents on equal footing.
CPU mobs will be nowhere near as responsive, but this game follows theme park design. Your low-INT build can only specialize against one enemy type at a time while 2 or 3 very different ones coexist in each biome. High-INT characters can take them all on at once because they can kit for all of them at once.
"Clever fighters" bring more than one trick to begin with, and limiting the player's "cleverness" by the character's INT score is lame.
Almost as lame as whinging about "min/maxing" and pretending that being bad at a game = fun and being good at one = not fun.
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@FibS Just try to understand. The game does not have a counter character for all characters. It depends on the cooperation system. If I had four of my team. healer. shadow assassin . tank. AWO Crowd Control
we can destroy team of 1 tank 3dps 2 healer
The game is schemes, tactics and strategies
Crowd Control . Control of 3 of dps
shadow assassin . kill healer
tank . Defends of my healer team
healer . heal crowd control
And your team will be deleted
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@anasfract said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
The game does not have a counter character for all characters.
That's an interesting statement, because I am sure there is.
Give me a character build that you think has no counters, and I will try to make one
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@Eurav I WILL MAKE A VEDIO SOON ON BUILDS
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XD Great back and forth there.
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@FibS Not going into the whole thing, but I will address one point.
I used 10 to 12 INT because it was the average....I never said you couldn't make a sub-optimal character, I said that Fighter types don't have to power-load INT to get by in the game. 10 to 12 is average in the game, and 10 I believe is the build default for the Gladiator class scheme given as an example. OBVIOUSLY if you start pulling points away from abilities until they go below Average, you are then handicapping your character in some way. That doesn't mean you should never do it, or that a fun character can't come about by doing such a build. The Idiot Barbarian type is a classic trope character and for people of a more role-playing bent, it is exactly what they would want to play, regardless of whether it were optimal or not.
Let me reiterate for the very slow in the class here, YES, bringing ANY ability score down from the Average is going to cause you to have to struggle, and YES, lowering any ability score from the default recommended for the build is going to have an affect on the character. Is there a chance a character becomes unplayable, a slim one, but not totally true. The game tends to limit how low you can reduce a stat, and they make you spend all your stat points, so you do have to put those points you take somewhere, and they limit how high you can make a stat, between those 3 limitations, they generall insure that a character cannot get too unbalanced.
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@GamerSeuss you are right man
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@GamerSeuss I agree when you say that bringing any stat below average will make you struggle, that's why you have an average and going below is a risky choice.
Sadly haven't played the game yet I don't have the actual feel of how much stats impact it, so I'll ask you this: are some of the stats more sacrificable than others? I mean, is INT the only stat you will struggle with if it goes below 10? Or are they all the same in that case?
Because if some stats can be dumped with no regret compared to others, then you can say that some stats are actually more important and fundamental, which creates the unbalance the main thread is talking about.
As I said I don't know yet, I don't have the data to say, but I would like some more experienced players to point out if there are some stats more vital than others, despise the build type or play style one is choosing.
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@GreatValdus
I haven't played myself yet, but in the discussion there were same examples already:@Razvan said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
First, all attributes have some stats that make you think twice before dumping them: 6 dex - you are immobile, 6 int - you have fewer memory points, 6 str - you can carry very little, 6 con - you are very squishy, 6 per - no crit. You can ask the same question about all other attributes, but especially DEX.
For me it sounds that all stats are important.
How important I can't say - sorry.
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If you noticed, CHA wasn't on that list.. which is because CHA really is the Dumpster Stat, unless you are currently either a Power Word user or afraid of being Power Used on
And even at 6, you are not completely hindered, however you will definitely feel the hinderance, however 8 is not so noticeable.
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@GreatValdus I mostly play mages, but did play at least 1 Gladiator per test.
I will say, when I played a Mage with very low (sub-average) Strength, it greatly impacted my carrying capacity, and in a game that makes you physically transport everything anywhere, instead of linking banks like other games, that's huge.
Not having played PvP, I didn't really test the affect of really low CHA, but I did dump stat that a few times on both build options, Arcanist and Gladiator
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@GamerSeuss I see, so I suppose it's really to early to understand if there actually are must-have stats at all.
Except for CHA that we know is currently dumpable...
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@GreatValdus Yeah, definitely early, and as always, dependent on playstyle
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Having the common knowledge be 'CHA is dump stat' is equally worrying especially with the existence of the power words. If most casual players dump CHA because that is the norm then that just makes high CHA and power words the way to spread the most grief easiest.
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We don't even have the CHA part of the Talent Tree implementet yet, so it probably is kinda hard to say where in the balance it lands.
Currently, you basically have the choice to improve CHA to increase your efficiency using and defending the Word of Power spells, or you reduce CHA and take some other stat to e.g. gain more surviveability during the cc by increasing health / armor / resistances.
For now, apart from those spells I think CHA really does not do anything yet. There will also be a lot more speels tied to CHA in the future, so we will have to see how this is going to turn out.
@OlivePit said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
If most casual players dump CHA because that is the norm then that just makes high CHA and power words the way to spread the most grief easiest
I would not say that. I have played my fair bit of PvP in the last tests, and I can tell you if you are new and don't really know what you are doing yet, the WoP series is going to be your least worry. You are literally going to get 1 hit by mages, ~2 hit by archers and ~2 hit by meeles.
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Going back to required stats, I would say STR, CON and INT are in kind of the same state here (maybe only CON and INT, could potentially also put DEX in there). DEX, PER and CHA are more your secondary Attributes for your build.
- STR - Health, Armor (meele damage and carry weight are not really generally necessary stats)
- CON - Health, Fortitude, Resistances against most spells
- INT - Memory Points, Willpower, Magic Resistance
No STR = you are going to get destroyed by meele / archers.
No CON = you are going to get destroyed by mages / a bit archers.
No INT = you miss out on Memory Points to equip your skills (see my post above as for the defense INT provides )You could potentially take DEX for evasion and ignore STR / CON somewhat, especially since it is a lot easier to get evasion than accuracy, however during cc e.g. stuns, evasion does not work.
I would say in the same way you might need INT to use the skills for dps / cc / tankiness you might want, you need the other stats to actually achieve damage or tankiness.
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Aye. CON & INT are currently the main two stats, with STR being next and then DEX.. PER and CHA (Which actually does increase your luck in finding rare items though this is also fixable by just raising the Luck portion of the Talent Tree which again puts CHA down in the dumspters) are at the bottom of the totem pole.
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@Eurav said in Int and Cha required stats? = Unbalanced?:
STR - Health, Armor (meele damage and carry weight are not really generally necessary stats)
In most games, you would be right about Carry Weight, but in Fractured, as I stated above, with having to carry everything from place to place, not being able to share your bank, plus the weight of things like rocks and sticks for campfires, carry weight actually does have more impact. If you get encumbered, your speed goes way way way down, even if you have a pumped up Dexterity, which could majorly affect you in PvE or PvP, not to mention, part of the reason for PvP in this player driven economy is to walk away with all the loot, and you want to be able to carry that loot safely to your own stash spots.
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This whole discussion is so important for me, since I haven't played much MMORPG and have never done much PvP in any game. I really appreciate the expertise of those in this thread w lots of experience, even when y'all don't agree!
My contribution to the discussion is a reminder that the CHA stat hasn't been developed yet bc the devs know the basic toons are mages and fighters, and CHA is going to be a more important stat for more complicated builds, and for races that don't exist yet, and for support toons like bards/tamers.
So before y'all lock in your ideas about what's crucial and what to dump, remember that the talent tree is far from finished, and new potentially awesome builds are going to be available in every test. I'm really looking forward to the CHA tree, as someone who has loved playing a bard in other games.
