Dexterity giving speed bonus might be an issue
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Regarding to latest article: ALPHA 2 – TEST 3 LAUNCH DAY REVEALED
"Dexterity now provides a 1% Move Speed modifier per point."
In open world and especially in different PvP situations, mobility is typically the key when chasing or escaping. Therefore, could we face a situation where assigning points to the dexterity can be a mandatory regardless of your class or build? I bet mages, healers and warriors would like to focus on other attributes instead of DEX.
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@Tuoni was honestly wondering the same thing. From what I have watched (youtube) etc. Your endurance doesn't go down much unless hit multiple times and regenerated easy with pots bandages etc.
What would keep a bleed or mage/ranged build from specing high/higher dex and just wearing you down from range?
Can't hit or kill what you can't catch right?
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In the recent test, movement speed wasn't the issue. Melees could easily close up with mages by simply activating enrage and frenzy. I had one person trying to counter my build by keeping me on distance whilst my cooldowns are active, yet he wasn't able to.
However, in this test I kind of share your fear, but not because of Dexterity. Since crits will deal way less damage and skills are likely going to change to deal less damage overall (like Ice Spikes), bandages might be able to make you unkillable in duels, even if you don't move at all.
Outmoving enemies can and most likely will be a huge part of the PvP tho, I like the possibility to focus more on movement speed, rather than damage. It change your playstyle: You will reduce your damage, endurance or resistances to get more possibilities in regards of movement. Even if you might be able to outmove a melee fighter, you will most likely lack the ability to counter a ranged mage or archer, that will just outdamage you. Or in other words: Improving your chances against one playstyle will most likely reduce your chances against other playstyles.
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@Freas In the recent test, the movement speed bonus was not there so it obviously could not been an issue. You kind of looked it from 1v1 fight pov and I agree anything can happen there, but base speed bonus can make kiting builds very strong. Anyhow, base speed bonus can have a huge impact for ganking and escaping which are typical open world encounters. It can be hard to escape from faster gankers if they can eventually catch you. Oh well, if this movement speed bonus will be a thing I guess my ganker char will be hunter/rogue type and focused for DEX.
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I think one thing you are all missing is that you don't really want to have less than 10 of any stats unless u r min maxing. So assuming no1 min maxes, everyone will have at least a move speed of 110% which, in effect 120% provides only a 9% move speed over others at the cost of sooo many stats at the very beginning. Most classes are capped at 18, instead of 20 points, which means they are only 7% faster than someone with 10 points in dex. Some classes are capped at 17 or 16 dex, lowing their speed over your reasonable minimum even more. If skills have a cast time, mages are gonna have to stop to attack u, giving you time to catch them. If an archer is shooting you from range, hide behind a boulder, so they have to come closer or run away in a zig-zag pattern so they waste all their ammo to almost never hit you. Use your environment.
Have a look at this link for more info. Keep in mind, some stuff may have changed already, or be changed in the future.
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@Xzait said in Dexterity giving speed bonus might be an issue:
I think one thing you are all missing is that you don't really want to have less than 10 of any stats unless u r min maxing. So assuming no1 min maxes, everyone will have at least a move speed of 110% which, in effect 120% provides only a 9% move speed over others at the cost of sooo many stats at the very beginning.
Game mechanics are "normal" at an attribute score of 10. Below that, you suffer penalties and over that you get bonuses (like the +1% per point of Dex).
Reason for this is the calculations are done using a Base and Move Speed Base for Humans is -10% with the calculation being: Move Speed Modifier = Base + (DEX * 1%)
So at DEX = 10, that is a modifier of 0%.
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It's a test, which means, if it turns out bad, it is easily fixed by going back to no bonus. If it turns out to work well (as @Freas implied, improving one aspect of your build makes another suffer as it should be), it can be tweaked and worked on further. That's why you have tests after all?
Just try it and AFTER you tried it, there's ample time to discuss it all day long
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@kellewic even still, using so many stat points that could be used on skills your race has a higher affinity for, for a mere 6-8% speed... just to try and outrun say an assassin type character, that can have 11% speed bonus anyways due to a positive affinity... you would be better of trying to take them head on, or use stuns on them to flee. Sure, if u r a mage, it wont be easy... but as a tank, you'd counter them. Need to prepare for any situation. Force them to swap their setup coz u swapped to their counter. The one that is most prepared will win if they have the skill.
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Also if you know you´re not going to be the fastest guy around (bear kin with 6 dex) you probably know your weakness and prepare accordingly - so far we have Cripple - sets enemy DEX to 10 and slows him (bad news if you have 25 DEX and count on being unhittable), also Slow might help.
Cripple is mostly resisted by Fortitude so fast guys will have to decide between STR and CON, or go both but other attributes might suffer (unless going human). Those few percents of movespeed are nice, but won´t make me max DEX (or even put single point into it) for passive effect only.
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I'm guessing, for melee, it's better to go STR CON, and then rely on movement skills to quickly catch up to your targets and engage them (apply slows to them so they don't get away from you afterwards), you can then add small amount of DEX alongside those 2.
Bigger amount of DEX is imho more for hunters, who need to run faster bigger amount of time, to continually kite targets.
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In open world PvP games the chases and escaping situations can be really long, and then only few % speed bonus can make a huge different and determine the result. If a group goes for ganking it is enough that 1 - 2 character(s) have maxed their mobility to catch the target. These characters can be hunters or rogues so they would max the dexterity anyway. Minority of the open world fights are somewhat fair or equal, and typically those will be chases or turn one after the otherside is losing. If mounting will be fast and its easy to escape that way then I guess the speed bonus does not have that much impact, however, that might make the ganking quite pointless activity.
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@Tuoni I think you make total sense. The only thing that I worry about is ganking and I think that might end up being a problem in this game. With the whole argument over whether or not the speed bonus makes a difference, it definitely does.
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I'm mostly thinking that the speed bonus should scale to be higher as dexterity increases. The speed boost from 18>19 should be greater than from 10>11.
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just putting my 2 cents in. Stun- slows and shadow step. move speed wont help to much.
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@Tuoni if you put points in speed, then you will lack points somewhere else. So you are fast, but if a melee with STR CON, catches you using movement spells, you will easily eat the bullet.
You can't gank someone if you are fast, and he is strong, he will just turn around and kill you.
Assuming 1 vs 1 here, and equal playing skills.
If you are 2 (or more) vs 1, then no ammount of points matter where they are, several players will always beat 1, no matter how you turn it. There is no escape.
Point is if you are kiting spec (hunter) then speed is beneficial, but if you are (warrior) then its better to minmax combat, and use movement spells, to catch up to your target, and slows to prevent him from escaping.
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@Gothix Not always true. If two players that are speed and damage based run in and happen to try and gank a tank that is aoe skill based, it is very likely the tank can win. Or a player that is prepared with stuns could still beat two people with propper timing by taking one on at a time, healing and so on. In PWI (Perfect World International - I wouldn't recommend it anymore), I saw a tank take on 20 people at once, and still be unkillable because they were prepared with a rediculous amount of buffs.
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@Xzait Yep, imo Gothix ment something like "DEX ganker is good at chasing panicing targets or fleeing if things go bad, but if enemy doesn´t panic and fights, he loses his advantage as he has to play by enemies rules". Like velociraptor trying to kill diplodocus.
If you are 2 (or more) vs 1, then no ammount of points matter where they are, several players will always beat 1, no matter how you turn it. There is no escape.
Devs stated "if youre skilled, you can defeat like 4 enemies at once" or something, I sure hope so. Let´s not forget about herd behavior - once group sees lonely target their defences go quickly down as they somehow think they´re invincible
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@Gothix said in Dexterity giving speed bonus might be an issue:
@Tuoni if you put points in speed, then you will lack points somewhere else. So you are fast, but if a melee with STR CON, catches you using movement spells, you will easily eat the bullet.
You can't gank someone if you are fast, and he is strong, he will just turn around and kill you.
Assuming 1 vs 1 here, and equal playing skills.
If you are 2 (or more) vs 1, then no ammount of points matter where they are, several players will always beat 1, no matter how you turn it. There is no escape.
Point is if you are kiting spec (hunter) then speed is beneficial, but if you are (warrior) then its better to minmax combat, and use movement spells, to catch up to your target, and slows to prevent him from escaping.
The general thing is that everybody (noobs aside) uses mobility based abilities as much as possible. That is quite standard procedure in open world games which has full loot system. If you lack mobility then you can be considered as dead in most of the cases or you are a ganker who does not actually catch anyone. Even most of the 1v1 fight situations ends up for a chase when the losing side escapes, perhaps for good or to make comeback after healing himself. Players who will lack mobility will be easy targets for gankers regardless you have assign points for strenght or constitution. Player who is more mobile can also easily escape the fight if the otherside is too strong. On top of that rogue and hunter classes will anyway bet on dexterity and still be equal strong in PvP when compared for warriors.
