Goodbye Grind?
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As everyone, or the vast majority know, Dynamight posed a game determined to put aside the grind system.
But what is Grind?
According to my definition, it is any process oriented to perform a certain action, or group of actions repetitively in order to acquire access to "something" that means the progress of our character, the increase of his faculties, his power or access to new options in the game.
With this in mind, it is very difficult to think that an MMORPG game can be totally free of this type of mechanics.
For example, to get a house the player needs a certain amount of gold (500 coins during the last alpha test). Acquiring these coins is nothing more nor less than a form of "Grind". Kill over and over and over again the same type of NPC in order to get the gold to "access" a new option in the game, "Housing".
In this aspect and trying to stay true to the concept of "Nothing of Grind" I think that a solution would be that access to the lot to build the house has to be obtained through a totally different system, such as:
- Solve a random generation puzzle.
- Clear the area of random enemies to claim it.
- PVP duel between 2 players who want to claim the same place.
- A challenge of questions about lore.
- A chain of unique missions.
And many other shapes that do not represent something repetitive and monotonous, or at least, not so obvious.
Returning to the specific topic of gold and grind during the alpha test, yes, in the end the game will have the ability to offer different ways to get these coins (rewards, sale of objects to NPCs, market, trade, etc.), the point is that the ¨currencies¨ in any game that has them fulfill a certain function designed and oriented to regulate most of the activities, from encouraging their accumulation to promoting their spending, thus making a forced cycle where the most obvious result is nothing more or nothing less than the "Grind" of said precious asset.
This opens the question that if in a game like Dynamight proposed it is convenient to have this type of system to regulate the economy and access to other functions.
We will see how it turns out...
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While I wouldn’t oppose there being more mechanics in building a house, I see nothing wrong with requiring money to build them. Seems rather intuitive, especially if it’s within a town or something.
I think when they refer to no grind it’s mostly in relation to levels and skills systems, no? So you can walk in day one and play with your friends. (I’m new here so I may have bad info)
The accumulation of wealth sort of needs to be a grind doesn’t it? It’s just about making it a tolerable or fun grind as opposed to a 2nd job.
It makes things actually worth something.
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I think that the „no grind“ idea of Fractured is a bit confusing.
What does it mean in the specific view to the idea?
I always understood the no grind, that you not have to kill thousands of creatures to get to the needed stuff. You not be forced like in many other games to grind hours and hours the same creatures to push your levels. That it also becomes senseless to grind creatures, because they will stop to give you KP after short time.What it does not mean to have a „no grind“ game?
In my opinion, every game can get used to grind, if you want to grind.
Grind for materials, to flood the market, grind for money to get shiney stuff, grind for PVP kills, to feel yourself like a real bad boy.
Having things you need to do, to get your stuff ready, does not mean grinding in a common sense of grind.
Yeah, we have to collect coins, wood, stones, leather, and many other stuff, to build and craft our needed stuff. But if you are honest, it is not grinding, just because you need some hours to finish your house.Grind is some kind of infinite doing.
Collecting stuff with a goal to satisfy your needs is not really a grind.
If your needs are to have the biggest storage of rabbit paws, then it will be probably grind, if you go out and kill rabbits for days or weeks, just to fill all your chests with them. But you are not forced to do that, you just have the possibility to do so.
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It is true, in a stricter and more focused aspect, it could be said that the Grind refers exclusively to questions such as:
- Level up.
- Gain power.
- Unlock content.
and in this way refer to very specific activities.
But basically, how does Fractured prove to avoid this?
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Level up:
In Fractured it is not necessary to level up, but instead it is necessary to acquire skills and a certain group of skills are only achieved through repetitive confrontation with the same type of creature, that is, "Grind?". -
Gain power:
In Fractured the character does not increase his statistics (power) with the level increase, but he does it with a greater variety of abilities that adapt to each situation. A character with limited abilities will always have a disadvantage compared to another who has most of them unlocked. To gain power, you have to increase the amount of skills available, which leads us to the first point, which leads us to "Grind?". -
Unlock content:
If there is a specific skill essential to a certain situation, a player will surely seek to obtain it (unlock it), for which he must resort to the NPC that offers this ability in a "recurring" way until obtaining it, in other words, "Grind?".
The difference in Fractured, in my opinion is not the absence of ¨Grind¨ but the time of its useful life to achieve something desired.
Mini-Grind?
Friendly-Grind?
This shortage in the duration of the repetitive and "obligatory" act to obtain something has a certain effect of non-existence.
When something is tied to a single source to be achieved and requires some recurrence and repetition it is difficult not to compare it with the "Grind" taste.
How long does an action take to be considered "Grind"?
Well, at least in my case I don't know, it's a matter of perception for me.
If something entertains me and becomes bearable and fun, is it "Grind"?
If I find it boring, uninteresting or frustrating, is it?
That is why, at least in my particular case, the question arises as to whether there really is a way to progress through a game in which no goal or objective is tied behind the need to systematically go to the same source to achieve something specific. .
Is it possible to conceive?
I do not know, what is certain that to date I could not find a game that at least in virtual reality comes close to that concept of freedom.
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@Chapex In my opinion, grinding is basically having to do something that is completely boring time and time again. As long as it feels interesting and fun, I would not call repetitiveness to be "grinding", and I believe that is what the devs here are trying to say. We will have repetitive actions that we will need to do, but there will just be so much variety and ways to go about things that we should not feel as though we are having to "grind" in order to get what we desire.
(Gets out his grinding wheel and grains of wheat to start his long drawn out process of making bread....again.) what? I have to till the the garden? feed the cattle? take out the garbage? AND make supper??? AGAIN??!!!! (sigh) Life's grind is never done. (Looks over at his dog lounging on the rug by the hearth) You lucky bum.
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Exact!
The "Grind", from my perspective, is closely associated with the perception of each player about how entertaining or fun a certain activity can be with a certain degree of repetition.
That is why I believe that within the philosophy of avoiding this type of "bad perception" they should increase the sources through which one can obtain something specific.
For example, if instead of having to face a certain type of creature to obtain an ability, one could choose between:
- Face players in PVP.
When an enemy is defeated in battle, an ability is obtained (randomly) that it already possesses, and that is not found in our character.
- Chain of missions.
Helping the NPCs that are victims of a certain type of enemy in a game zone gives us the possibility to obtain during the stages of the missions the abilities that this enemy grants.
- Crafting.
Providing resources to an NPC in charge of Protecting / Confronting a certain type of enemy gives us the possibility of obtaining during the supply stages the abilities that this enemy grants.
And other types of ways.
In this way the "access" to a certain objective is not limited to a specific type of activity.
Everyone can choose the best way to achieve the same. In this way, the "perception" of what to do for a certain thing is much more flexible.
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@Chapex said in Goodbye Grind?:
Well, at least in my case I don't know, it's a matter of perception for me.
Yeah feeling similar. I could not set any limits, when something starts to be grindy.
In Salem we had much grindy like activities, but it never felt like grind for me, because there was so much of these activities, that you had such a great variety.I am feeling a game becomes grindy, if you are forced to do the same action again and again to get to a specific goal, thats demanded by the game. My best example was in the good old days of WoW, when you needed to circle hours and hours for the Air Elementals in Silitus, because you needed that Air stuff to go to the high level content. Or the opening of Ahn Qiraj - weeks of farming always the same stuff.
If something is Grinding, is always a thing of a personal perspective.
Others may feel the grind earlier or later.
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great discussion! it's definitely true that defining terms is key to achieving goals, and that re-defining terms can create an illusion of freedom (we're learning that the VERY hard way in the USA...).
I like the way @Chapex not only defines what they mean by 'grind' but also offers a way to replace something that felt 'grindy' with something more interesting.
I actually did stop playing the free stress test when I learned how many goblins I'd have to kill to get the 500 gp to build a house, even though I didn't yet have all the skills goblins could teach me. Precisely Because that felt grindy to me, and I didn't want to put myself through it for a house that wouldn't persist past the test.
That's a personal decision, yeah, but the constructive suggestions about possible alternatives to getting grindy goblin gold is what WINS for me. Instant follow.
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Continuing with the line of incorporating more diversity so that each style of play can achieve the same objectives, thus helping each player's perception to avoid falling into the "Grind" area, I can think of more ideas.
- Resources.
From my perspective, the collection of resources is something that entertains and pleases me, but what about those players who do not enjoy this type of activity but who want to achieve the objectives behind that activity?
Different ways of obtaining such resources should be possible.
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Perhaps for those who decide to focus on the PVP, the option of redeeming “glory” or “honor” points (or whatever they want to call it) with some NPC that offers them such resources in exchange may be a solution.
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Perhaps for those who want to focus on the PVE but specifically (group content) they can exchange their “brotherhood” points (or whatever they want to call it) accumulated during their group activities for necessary resources.
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Also for those who prefer to focus on a play style focused on the pure aspect of RPG, the possibility of making use of their “favor” points (or whatever they want to call it) earned through their fervent loyalty to some God to exchange for resources.
And in these ways and many more nurture the game of "diversity" to achieve the same goal.
As I come up with new options I will post them in this thread in the hope that they will become a positive contribution.
See you later!
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Thank you very much @PeachMcD !
Precisely that is my objective when questioning what is the "Grind" in a video game and how to interpret the wishes of the developers in their attempt to avoid it and the true impact on the players.
I think that the real solution against grinding is diversity as a way to achieve the same goal.
As this unwanted mechanic by many is marked by the perception of each player, the real solution is to offer options that fit each style of play, grant a comfort zone in which each one feels that they are investing their time in something that pleases and does not thereby lose sight of common goals.
Creating an environment that allows access to the same from different perspectives is something that does not currently exist in this type of entertainment and that I think would be a revolutionary and successful change if it manages to be well implemented.
Dynamight has a unique opportunity to enter the market with something that many have been waiting for years and have not yet managed to achieve.
I hope that Fractured becomes that basin of gold coins at the end of the rainbow and that the gaming community can finally enjoy a video game that can fulfill its main function, entertain, amuse, cheer, gratify, accompany and all those positive things that one looks for when entering in a virtual world.
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There may be less grind but no grind is simply misleading. Grind is grind even it would be sugar coated.
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(heavily spreads on his thick sugar glaze) mmmmm... maybe, but it definitely tastes better with lots of sugar
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For this reason, as the mechanics of repeating the same thing over and over again is inevitable at a certain point, what you have to focus on is the "perception" that these mechanics cause in the different types of players.
It is at this moment that diversity comes into play.
When a target is specifically behind a single type of repetitive mechanics it is impossible to avoid that many feel that it is simply more Grind, pure and hard or smoothed and sweetened but Grind in the end.
On the contrary, if said objective can be achieved through different paths, it is very likely that each player chooses the one that best suits their needs and in this way their perception of what they are doing is more gratifying.
I think that the problem of Grind is not the fact of having to perform the same action repeatedly, but the feeling that this generates in each one.
If that feeling is negative, boring or frustrating but necessary to achieve a goal, the player is subjected to something that generates rejection and that must be done repeatedly.
If that feeling is positive, fun or rewarding and it is also the direct path to what one seeks to achieve, the player will not only not get tired of doing it but will be grateful.
No matter how much effort they put into remodeling a mechanic to achieve a goal, the key is how diverse are the paths that allow achieving that goal.
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There will never be any game in which you would need to "do nothing". What would be the point of a game then? Log in and watch the stars?
The question is only how extensively you will need to repat certain activity.
If you take Korean games and see how extensively you need to spend your life, doing same action over and over... and over again... that's grind.
If you just need to get some coins for the house, and then you are done, your house was build. Thats not grind.
Also for all repeatable activities, it's just he question how extensive repetition is, and is this activity you must do exclusively for itself, separated from other gameplay, or is it something that just comes along naturally, while you are also doing other stuff.
Many factors are involved here in determining is something "grind" or not, and how large of a grind it is.
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Do people realize that Fractured will be a game where everything is basically a consumable and you have to replace gear periodically? Thinking we'll have no grind is simply naive.
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@Razvan I think it'd be less 'equip-consumable' as it is on other games due to the varying planets/pvp rule.
but I do agree that we gotta apply the same mentality as other full loot pvps that equips are essentially consumables.
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@Razvan That is why in my previous comments I tried to explain that instead of trying to avoid Grind from a game mechanics approach they should do it from the perception perspective.
Since there is no single mechanic that can satisfy the wide spectrum of players, the alternative would be to create multiple mechanics that allow you to go after the same objective.
Diversify the means to achieve a desired goal.
In this way, by making each player choose the most attractive path for their style, the technical aspect and routine implicit in a certain sequence of actions can go unnoticed.
The existence of the Grind as a mechanic but without the negative effect that it usually takes hand in hand.
That's the kind of freedom that can make a big difference in a video game.
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@Zori It is true, and constantly replacing an object involves a series of actions that are repeated and shape the so-called Grinding, but this is not always the case.
To cite an example, in the face of the recurrent loss of a common armor made of leather.
Some options would be:
A) I like collecting resources and crafting? I'm going to hunt animals to skin them, I do the leather treatment and make the new armor.
B) I am good in business and I prefer to spend gold and not my time? I pay a craftsman for the materials and manufacture of the new armor.
C) Am I good at defeating other players? My chests are full of trophies therefore I go and take a new armor from there.
Different paths (mechanics) for the same objective.
Players "A, B, C" are going to repeat the same actions over and over again, but they are going to do it in a pleasant way, they like what they do, "Grind" is not perceived.
Now what if the game's design stated that the only way to acquire a new leather armor is through resource gathering and crafting?
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Player "A": I love this game, I can do what I like and get what I need, I will make positive contributions in the forum, I will recommend it to my friends and we will play it forever!
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Player ¨B¨ and ¨C¨: OMG! ... FFFF !! I can't take it anymore, I hate collecting resources and crafting, boredom is killing me, I can't use my time on what really matters to me .... What are developers thinking about when they do something like that ??? This game has no future, I am going to eliminate all my characters, I am going to give away all my things and I am not going to return again !!!!
(The player keeps his promise ... soon he feels nostalgic and returns and the cycle of hate resumes ...)
This is what happens when certain targets are placed exclusively behind a single game mechanic.
The segregation and exclusion that occurs with these mechanics can be positive for an environment that seeks to establish hierarchies
or elite groups 
The barriers that are imposed in this way are only broken down by those who have the perseverance and the necessary capacities to achieve the goal
, no matter how tedious, boring or frustrating it may be 
Competition and desires for belonging enter the scene ...
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It's called Bartle's Taxonomy.
Bartle proposed a theory that suggests that there are 4 main player types.1 ) Achievers
2 ) Killers
3 ) Socialisers
4 ) ExplorersEssentially achievers only care about getting the 'numbers', they're often seen as completionists and this where 'killers' have fun at, as they enjoy the pure essence of PK, however if an 'achiever's' efforts are going to waste as they keep getting killed or are restricted to get to where they want/need, they lose interest in the game, this is where explorers comes in handy.
Explorers don't care about making bank or killing, while they may dabble in it every now and then but their main goal is to explore the game and its possibilities. These players typically figure out new builds or fun/creative ways to approach a problem, which would often stump 'killers' as they have to re-adjust and adopt to a new play style, in a sense 'killers' love hunting explorers as it generally keeps them interested.
All 3 types generally have their own way of socialising; albeit since Bartle's theory was released, the socialising and gaming community is not as advanced to what it is now, however 'socialisers' are typically people who enjoy running guilds and communities and they do tend to benefit from the other 3 types.
So going back to your point;
Every player have their own method of 'grinding', and having too many options actually dilutes it the game balance and can even cause a degree of 'inflation', but in the game sense where we don't know the economy; it generally just de-values the items.
Why does it devalue the item/process of getting the item? because players would naturally follow the path of least resistance instead of the proposed idea of "do what you like to get to where you want."
So quite often, limitations are actually a good thing as it keeps people focused or honed in on a certain area.
Another good example of 'spreading too thin can be a bad idea' is the 'golden age of MMORPGs' where so many MMORPGs popped out month after month to the point that players are trying them all out at once; sure it gave them the option of "see which MMO you like best", but in reality, they've spread out way too thin and hence the collapse of the genre, atm we're in the 'dark ages' of MMORPGs as developers are still trying to explore new methods or approaches to the genre while competing with current trends.
So in conclusion, having too much option to acquire certain things can actually negatively impact the main purpose of the item, and devalues the process or the item.
So when you're thinking about a certain suggestion, or idea, broaden your scope/perspective and you'll see that at times you're only looking at things from your own frame of reference.
As a matter of fact, this game takes the concept of Bartle's taxonomy quite well in terms of catering for 4 types of players.
Socialisers? - Govern a town.
Killing? - Go play demon.
Explorer - Play human
Achiever - Arboreous.As to how that would translate to items would be interesting but with the time tested theory where countless of other "crafting based" mmorpg economies have failed; multiple means to obtain 'items' only devalues the process and the item itself.
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@Chapex said in Goodbye Grind?:
This is what happens when certain targets are placed exclusively behind a single game mechanic.
The segregation and exclusion that occurs with these mechanics can be positive for an environment that seeks to establish hierarchies or elite groupsWhen I re-read your post, it sounded as if you were concerned about items/resources being guild/area locked.
I'm not sure if you're aware of the asteroid mechanic of this game.
There are things called 'asteroids' that would be accessible to everyone, some asteroids have an interval of one year, once in a life time, once a week, once a day, etc. etc. if I remember correctly, there's even one every hour? (someone correct me on this)Essentially these asteroids are thematic of certain resources or creatures, and that they all have similar rules to 'planets', i.e; some are full pvp, others are lawful, some are non-pvp while still having access to resources.
Every player is actually 'encouraged' to go to an asteroid as certain skills/knowledges are only accessible on asteroids, so if one of your concern is not having access to certain resources/materials, then it would be unfounded; you don't need to worry about that
