Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience"
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newest news wrap up video by Rhykker mentions the "pay to not play the game" as a catch up mechanic in Ghost Recon Breakpoint:
.Since Ghost Recon Breakpoint’s early access period went live, some players have raised questions about certain ‘time-saving’ microtransactions that appear to have been available in the game.
Now I know @Prometheus wants pay for convenience but you really should reconsider that or look at the responses on the video.
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Thanks for the post!
It is such a difficult (and sadly ongoing topic).
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I'd rather not have any non-cosmetic paid services here because it isn't a free to play game. Exclusive cosmetic stuff is bad enough (unless Dynamight gold can be earned in game?) but understandable to keep the game getting support.
It it needs an ingame store then a little discreet icon is fine. I really don't want to be advertised at constantly like some games do. I loved the beta of a game called City of Steam but it launched with an asian publisher and constantly demanded feeding, like a greedy pet. They apparently separated from the publisher (I'd left before that) to try to survive but It was ruined beyond redemption by then and it closed down. They might have made money in the short term with their greed but wouldn't they have been better off thinking longer term? It's that situation that puts me off paying for an early version of a game.
From what I can tell, Dynamight aren't greedy money-grabbing scum. The Foundation is good evidence of that. I hope they can stay classy and implement any pay for convenience features in a non-obtrusive way.
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we know they'll have character slots. Prometheus already wants convenience in but I'll still object to it.
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@Jetah Just an opinion, but I think it all depends on the game studio. Digital Extremes, in my opinion, have done a great job handling P4C model with Warframe.
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@Crowdac said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Jetah Just an opinion, but I think it all depends on the game studio. Digital Extremes, in my opinion, have done a great job handling P4C model with Warframe.
that's only because you can pay to speed up crafting. otherwise you can get silver via game play when trading. I suspect fractured to offer tools or something to speed up crafting too but that puts it into the p2w category because this is a pvp game.
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Eh, they could hold out, but if the game isn't bringing in as much money as they were hoping, I could see them experimenting with that route just to bring in cash.
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@Belligero said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
Eh, they could hold out, but if the game isn't bringing in as much money as they were hoping, I could see them experimenting with that route just to bring in cash.
too many other games working on just cosmetic. Path of Exile has stash tabs which can be considered convenience. Warframe has direct pay to speed up crafting but you dont need it and any player can play the game and trade items obtained for shoppe currency.
PoE has a huge catalog of cosmetic and spell options. Fractured will have outfit, weapon, spells, mounts and housing all of which can have multiple cosmetic options. The housing alone could earn them quite the revenue if they do it properly.
Add in some great way for cosmetic skins to drop from game content then add a way to trade items for dynamite gold and it can be a great monetization system. They dont have to sell convenience at all.
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@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)Add in some great way for cosmetic skins to drop from game content then add a way to trade items for dynamite gold and it can be a great monetization system. They dont have to sell convenience at all.
The problem is that it's usually the 'easiest' and 'short term most profitable' route and hence such an huge issue with plenty a game. Let's hope the developers can handle this well in Fractured.
Again, thanks for bringing this up Jetah!
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"Convenience" can be different things depending on game mechanics and type of game.
For example, selling character bag space in a game that also has large housing storage and multiple teleports to the house would be a simple convenience, luxury that's not really making you "win" anything.
In a game that's full loot, and features manual travel and restricted character carry capacity, selling bag space would be P2W.
So depending on a game, a same thing can be either a P2W or a simple convenience.
If cash shop is made right, and features only a real convenience, that this will be good for the game. Just need to be careful what to put in shop.
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No matter the shortcut if it isn't cosmetic I would personally consider it pay to win. All those little advantages can eventually add up to a huge advantage.
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@Gothix said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
(...)For example, selling character bag space in a game that also has large housing storage and multiple teleports to the house would be a simple convenience, luxury that's not really making you "win" anything(...)
That is certainly true on an individual level, but it can become a determining factor in larger scale groups (guild vs guild). Soon as convenience means you are saving time (more space means you can be in PvE longer before having to 'teleport' back, thus getting more loot per hour), one guild can get a higher 'supply for war'. If you can refit your soldiers with good equipment more often than the enemy, you can win a guild vs guild conflict.
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That’s the great thing about games that have (insert plex, dacs, etc) game time tokens that can be traded in game. Some games allow you to change the game time token into premium currency instead. So you have a choice of 1 month of game time, or X premium currency.
There’s always those that complain it gives the person who originally sold the token an advantage, but to be honest... pay to win to me means you cannot achieve what a paying player is doing through game time. This actually alleviates that problem entirely, as anything can be purchased with in game player made currency
I’m always of the opinion that it’s important to open up all purchases to free players as well, and this is a great way to do it.
In one swoop you take out both pay to win AND third party RWT.
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@Pluto It depends on the grind time to achieve that trade in currency. If it takes weeks or months to get what a player can buy in seconds it's not a good system.
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@Gothix said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
"Convenience" can be different things depending on game mechanics and type of game.
For example, selling character bag space in a game that also has large housing storage and multiple teleports to the house would be a simple convenience, luxury that's not really making you "win" anything.
In a game that's full loot, and features manual travel and restricted character carry capacity, selling bag space would be P2W.
So depending on a game, a same thing can be either a P2W or a simple convenience.
If cash shop is made right, and features only a real convenience, that this will be good for the game. Just need to be careful what to put in shop.
but. lets say people have to harvest materials to get items crafted. lets say time is a resource. would you want to maintain 100 slots (and/or weight) being free or would you rather pay $$ to increase that space and/or weight so you can harvest longer without having to run back to base?
there isn't typically an equal amount of time players play. but if 2 people with equal game times of say 2 hours a day. they both have the same race and class and picked the same gathering. one decides to not buy space/weight and tries to earn it. while the other decides to buy space/weight. during those 2 hours of harvesting the no-pay has to return to their house 6 times while the other only needed to return twice. while the convenience is there so is the speed in which the paying customer can get better goods.
now lets extend this to a 6 month time. they've both gathered 2 hours a day (breaks were taken but lets assume it was an equal amount of days). the player that paid has 4x the materials that the non-payer has. that means the non-payer has to farm 4x more to be equal in harvesting the same amount of quantity.
now lets assume a whale decided to buy all the slots and weight that can be purchased. lets say the same 2 hours a day. lets say after 1 month they're already equal to payer above.
how is this seemly convenience mechanic not a p2w option?
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I am totally okay to pay for a little bit non abusive way convenience.
Every MMO need to maintain themself, and that they can't do just with one time payment.
A subscription should be combined with a convenience part.In Boundless i pay a sub, because i don't want to care for my beacons, they get autofilled.
In Fractured we get the Carpenter NPC, who cares for maintaining our Houses.
And we get slightly more Knowledge gaining benefits, but they said that will just affect the ones who like to complete the whole Knowledge Tree.See:
https://fracturedmmo.com/faq/faq-general/
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https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/search?term=VIP&in=posts&matchWords=all&by[]=Prometheus&sortBy=relevance&sortDirection=desc&showAs=posts
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@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
I am totally okay to pay for a little bit non abusive way convenience.
Every MMO need to maintain themself, and that they can't do just with one time payment.
A subscription should be combined with a convenience part.In Boundless i pay a sub, because i don't want to care for my beacons, they get autofilled.
In Fractured we get the Carpenter NPC, who cares for maintaining our Houses.
And we get slightly more Knowledge gaining benefits, but they said that will just affect the ones who like to complete the whole Knowledge Tree.See:
https://fracturedmmo.com/faq/faq-general/
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https://forum.fracturedmmo.com/search?term=VIP&in=posts&matchWords=all&by[]=Prometheus&sortBy=relevance&sortDirection=desc&showAs=poststhe problem with convenience is the developers can design those task to be tedious to heavily persuade the subscription. the VIP will give an immediate boost when the game is new. after 18 months it might not be nearly as a boost. so it could be changed!
i'd prefer only cosmetics. some account level stuff like character slots, name change, are fine. if we could sell characters via DS/Fractured store then i'm ok with that too.
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@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
the problem with convenience is the developers can design those task to be tedious to heavily persuade the subscription. the VIP will give an immediate boost when the game is new. after 18 months it might not be nearly as a boost. so it could be changed!
i'd prefer only cosmetics. some account level stuff like character slots, name change, are fine. if we could sell characters via DS/Fractured store then i'm ok with that too.In general i am with you, that this behaviour, that you described is terrible.
But do you not imagine too much, what will happen with the benefits of VIP?
They promised us to design it in a way that not affect the equality of player.
We did not even see the result about this, just an idea.
But i see you are agueing with a possible Imagination.Also if i read the Article you linked right, you compare Fractured VIP benefits with a game with Microtransaction time savers? And for this reason you want to warn Prometheus?
C'mon.
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@Kralith said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
the problem with convenience is the developers can design those task to be tedious to heavily persuade the subscription. the VIP will give an immediate boost when the game is new. after 18 months it might not be nearly as a boost. so it could be changed!
i'd prefer only cosmetics. some account level stuff like character slots, name change, are fine. if we could sell characters via DS/Fractured store then i'm ok with that too.Do you not imagine too much, what will happen with the benefits of VIP?
They promised us to design it in a way that not affect the equality of player.
We did not even see the result about this, just an idea.
But i see you are agueing with a possible Imagination.Also if i read the Article you linked right, you compare Fractured VIP benefits with a game with Microtransaction time savers? And for this reason you want to warn Prometheus?
C'mon.i've been there when game companies said one thing and it didnt work out. i've been there when companies said something and it had a huge backlash in the community.
i know knowledge doesn't make you powerful but it does open the options up more which can be more powerful than not having them. if there's a city siege and you have vip sit out a little waiting to see what spells are needed to counter then it's going to go in favor of those that can counter.
prometheus already said the game would have convenience mtx. i posted this video/topic to show them that it isn't a good idea. the comments in the video dont like the convenience options. it's been said that crafting will be real time in fractured. that means tools and benches can be sold for convenience (to shorten the time it takes to craft).
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@Jetah said in Rhykker Mention of "Pay for Convenience":
prometheus already said the game would have convenience mtx. i posted this video/topic to show them that it isn't a good idea. the comments in the video dont like the convenience options. it's been said that crafting will be real time in fractured. that means tools and benches can be sold for convenience (to shorten the time it takes to craft).
Where they said that?
