Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities
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@asspirin
But the games you mentioned are single player / mostly pve oriented.
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@Razvan Hm, all of them do have multiplayer and imo only one that doesn´t aim at pvpers is GRIM DAWN
DII was all about pvp and Path of Exile tried too ... too bad some builds were too op.
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@asspirin
I'd argue that all of them are PvE-oriented, but either way Diablo2 is a very bad example when it comes to pvp since it's very unbalanced and has a handful of viable builds. I mean, Hammerdin is probably the strongest build in the game (in the sense that it can solo well and be a very strong pick for pvp against everyone but characters specially designed to fight him). Then you have builds like the foh (charger also works, but it's harder), which can 1shot almost everyone. Besides, I don't see how this settles the attack speed / damage burst discussion since the strong characters in these games have both stats raised.
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@Razvan said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
@Manaia
Usually life leech for spells and physical damage are treated differently. Besides you compare a spell that is meant to replenish your HP while damaging the enemy to a feature that offers passive healing based on the damage done for melee weapons.And no, combat doesn't always favor people with attack speed - if it worked that way, there was no point in 2h weapons. Replenishing a flat amount of HP per hit favors weapons with higher attack speed.
Regarding passive healing based on damage done, I said this about that in my first post:
"As long as they keep it a static formula and not "you gain x% life for all damage you do, ever" then it should be fine."
This kind of healing ALWAYS becomes broken.Regarding your comment of attack speed - two people with the same 2H weapon, the one with attack speed is still very likely to have the advantage
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there could be a cap of how much leech per second can be obtained.
i'd prefer leech be more spells than an attribute you can apply to a weapon. now it be interesting for a necro to place a 'buff' on friendlies where their damage heals the necro then the necro can use their HP to heal summons.
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there could be a cap of how much leech per second can be obtained.
But what cap would it be - depending on max endurance? Max health ? Or will leech have its own passives in passive tree (like in Path of Exile )? If so, under what attribute.
Each archetype always had own ways to get life back. Heavy warrior slowly regenerated, which was fine, as warriors mostly have high resistances, dps (rogues, rangers whatever) either tried to never get hit or used life leech and casters had heals or debuffs. Damage lifeleech was always best for fast attacking types - carries always have more dps than life s o they benefit from life leech most of all archetypes (casters are on second place, however it´s still better for them to nuke enemy down), so please just make heals slowly regenerate health instead immediate heal - or else high dmg chars (carries) couldn´t be taken down (dps should always outdamage tank while leech through their weaker strikes...not talking about having high evasion).
Even with heal over time assassins still can go invis or disable you with assassination abilities, so they wouldn´t be too incapacitated, but at least we´ll avoid "lvl 25 Mortred with Satanic".
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@Manaia said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
Regarding passive healing based on damage done, I said this about that in my first post:
"As long as they keep it a static formula and not "you gain x% life for all damage you do, ever" then it should be fine."
This kind of healing ALWAYS becomes broken.Why?
Regarding your comment of attack speed - two people with the same 2H weapon, the one with attack speed is still very likely to have the advantage
Again, how did you conclude that? If you have 2 characters with the same total of points, but different distribution, the one with lower attack speed with have the points put in another stat. Maybe it's HP/armor, which help him survive as a frontline. Maybe it's damage, which should give similar dps.
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i'm not going to think of all that when the combat/spell spotlight hasn't been released. the cap can be race dependent, weapon dependent, skill dependent, armor, etc. it could just be a straight cap.
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@Razvan said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
@Manaia said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
Regarding passive healing based on damage done, I said this about that in my first post:
"As long as they keep it a static formula and not "you gain x% life for all damage you do, ever" then it should be fine."
This kind of healing ALWAYS becomes broken.Why?
How does this always become broken? The OP mentioned it already.
Then again these are all games that have a power creep and this game is more horizontal progression so it shouldn't be as bad.Regarding your comment of attack speed - two people with the same 2H weapon, the one with attack speed is still very likely to have the advantage
Again, how did you conclude that? If you have 2 characters with the same total of points, but different distribution, the one with lower attack speed with have the points put in another stat. Maybe it's HP/armor, which help him survive as a frontline. Maybe it's damage, which should give similar dps.
I was assuming in a 1v1 situation, that was my mistake.
There would obviously be math that would have to be taken into consideration. How much more attack speed does PersonA have vs PersonB's additional effective HP (armor & health)? How long will it take PersonA to get an additional attack that PersonB, and is that greater or less than the additional effective HP PersonB has? Now throw critical hits into the equation, it's still likely to favor the person with increased attack speed.
Another thing to consider: Does attack speed affect the attack animation, the cooldown between attacks, or both? If it affects the attack animation then they should always get the first hit - which is ALWAYS advantageous.
Previous experience speaking, it's better to have more damage output rather than being able to take damage - except in fringe situations. ESPECIALLY in 1v1 or even small groups.
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@Manaia
for smaller scale. MOBA-style auto-attack builds are not ideal for this kind of combat and in general attack speed / life leech is irrelevant.
Well, I got carried away with it for some reason as well. What exactly do you have in mind when you think of pvp in this game? I think of
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@Razvan dat one shot combo in second video on 00:20 mark
Thank gods Fractured has saves and disables don´t stack.However in such zergs aoe damage attack with lifeleech component might be potent (if caster is at least little tanky).
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@Razvan Paladin was long time the worst guy to pvp with, but with synergies and Grief runeword he become the best (smiter, foher and hammerdin were sure the strongest). So yes, it was totally imbalanced, some skills would even disable enemy character (amazon with missile slowing spell vs any projectile using character) ---> so in proper pvp some skills and items were banned and there were caps on stats (max resists, max move speed etc.). So you´re right, game wasnt pvp, but with rules it was awesome
I only mentioned Diablo, because i remembered DII v1,09 BvBers, who had VERY low healthpools, but twice dmg of regular pvp barbs and huge life steal. Even if you had 4x more hp, they would leech through your damage, aside trying to snipe them from afar with javelins, there was not much to do. Btw no barb / druid / paladin / amazon ever used anything slower than weapon that would give them max attacks. Dmg is king, but speed kills
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I don't really agree with the statement that attack speed is the more important stat because usually the auto attack characters have both high attack speed and damage. If the game allows burst damage dealers, then characters who can 1combo someone are viable. If you scale up the combat (lets say from 5v5 to 20v20), then attack speed becomes a lot less relevant. Either way, I feel that this discussion is more of a subjective thing that reveals our class preferences and doesn't lead anywhere so maybe dropping it is for the best.
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Thank gods Fractured has saves and disables don´t stack.
That's 3 different CC being used there by the tank: pull, stun and root. In this sense, I hope they stack because it would be weird not to be able to stun someone while they were slowed.
Then, in Albion there's the knight helmet, which gives a short aoe immunity buff to push and pull.@asspirin said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
However in such zergs aoe damage attack with lifeleech component might be potent (if caster is at least little tanky).
Casters with tanky armors are not very good at doing burst damage, which is important when healers can do aoe burst healing.
I don't think life leech would make a major difference in this kind of fights because as a backline, if you are being CC'ed and the big aoe damage is coming your way, you won't make it alive regardless. Other than that, you have healers to top you off.
In small skirmishes however it will be hard to balance, reason why I think passive life leech on spells shouldn't be a thing (life drain is an active spell).
Another thing worth mentioning is the reflect on aoe spells. Imagine throwing a high damage spell in a bunch of tanks with reflect buff and getting insta-suicided.
PS: I really hope Fractured won't be as aoe-heavy as Albion tho.
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@Razvan said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
Either way, I feel that this discussion is more of a subjective thing that reveals our class preferences and doesn't lead anywhere so maybe dropping it is for the best.
Totally agreed.
That's 3 different CC being used there by the tank: pull, stun and root. In this sense, I hope they stack because it would be weird not to be able to stun someone while they were slowed.
Then, in Albion there's the knight helmet, which gives a short aoe immunity buff to push and pull.At least CC should be devided into soft CC (slows and such that only limit your movement/fighting capabilities) and hard CC (stun, petrify, being turned into chicken and similar ones, that leave you fully helpless).
ESO has such thing, why not Fractured. And while SAVES might help, they´re not reliable; it would suck to be unlucky on rolls and be stunned -> petrified -> hexed -> stunned again -> webed or whatever, while being teared to pieces by minions ... and some nukes as bonus. No stack of hard ones please and if so, then with serious diminishing returns.
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Warhammer online got pretty good cc immunities too, divided in 2 sorts of hard cc's, but that's another topic than life leech etc
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@asspirin said in Life leech on spells / enchants / buff abilities:
At least CC should be devided into soft CC (slows and such that only limit your movement/fighting capabilities) and hard CC (stun, petrify, being turned into chicken and similar ones, that leave you fully helpless).
No-stackable hard CC as you name them sounds like a good idea.
PS: @Shivashanti is right. Maybe we should start a thread about CC.
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@Razvan Imo change to CC (that they wouldn´t stack) is quite recent, so we´ll either see it in another free weekend/alpha or devs will inform us through Pills. Let´s be patient.
