Importance of attributes triggering repetition?
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@needlehawk I sort of hope that there is an active interface on the point distribution - something that lists Malus effects if they are in play, maybe an example of three skills (which the player can look at and cycle through) showing the effects of what the current stat array does in those terms - accuracy based on Perception, for example, so if you slide your Perception bar down, you can see how that affects the accuracy - and either lock them, so you can make comparisons, or let them "ride," which adjusts them to match some of the skills that the game is actually going to give you to start, based on your stats at the moment - remember, the game is going to assign at least some skills so you can't bork yourself at the start into non-viablity.
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The idea that you can get it right at char gen in an mmo (which is always a changing environment) is simply bonkers. There are too many unknowns, esp in a game like this which is all about discovering the unknowns. Add in patches and balance fixes and learning which skills do or do not work and I think there will almost have to be some way to reset or refactor attributes. It may be a limited refactor rather than a complete reset, but it will have to exist.
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cough cough no such thing as screwing up a character you just gotta find a way to play the character
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Oh there really are ways to screw up a character...
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I'd prefer a system where stats are dynamic instead of static. Meaning a species (sub-race) has a minimum attribute value then based on your skills being used will adjust the appropriate attribute.
Meaning a player that picks a high strength sub-race can still use magic because the Intel attribute will increase as they cast spells.
Vise versa also happens if a player picks a high Intel sub-race but uses more melee (either strength or dex based).This prevents the issues of "my character is bad I need to reroll". It also allows skills to be adjusted and players to swap. A length of time for the stats to adjust could be a bell curve so that it's quick to a number then slows to grow beyond that. IE from 10 to 15 could be quick but 15 to 20 would be much slower.
This allows a player to pick a sub-race based on visuals instead of attribute stats.
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@jarek Short answer - the devs are building the game to assign certain initial skills to a character based on their stats, to avoid someone taking, for example, a bunch of basic Warfare, strength-based, skills when you left your Strength stat at 6 - if you want them, you can still learn them, but it prevents a character from being entirely outclassed and doomed in their initial hours of play, giving them the chance to learn the skills they want.
While it is, theoretically possible to make a character so disadvantaged work, it would be difficult and frustrating. This way, you can do that after hour 2 or 3, since basic skills are (probably) easy to acquire, but it means you have some more functional skills to fall back on if you get frustrated afterwords.
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@jarek i dissagree
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When you put some attribute on a character they're 3 ways :
- instinctive suicidal ways : i'm a warrior, I put all in strength and constitution, no need to think (3 int int) and i'm ugly (3 in char) don't need social interaction, my axe talk to me...
- the jack-of-all-trades way, medium in all stats, could do some things but not at the maximum.
- the thinker way : take time, analyse what he want and go for this... (a 18, 19,20 or more on a attribut, with an assumed minimum on others)
But, all the 3 ways have some good and bad side... you could'nt have all goods things. In each ways you'll have weakness. Play with it, find a way to inforce and turn weakness strong.
And tips : some subraces with natural intel attributes could be surprising strong warrior
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@therippyone The more I think about it, the more I wish that they would let you choose your background first to establish your basic skills, then give you a choice between a pre-built stat allocation based on your background or choosing your stats yourself. If you hadn't researched the game much, you would probably opt for the pre-built stats. If you had a specific build in mind, you would opt for choosing them yourself.
I think that that would probably keep everyone happy.
In addition, they should give respecs any time that they do MAJOR balancing to the point of borking certain builds.
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@needlehawk I can see a free stat respec in the case of a significant re-balance (Something like, on login, "THERE HAS BEEN A GREAT DISTURBANCE IN THE UNIVERSE!" takes you to the character build screen, "What titanic forces have been Unleashed?!" (it's a link to the Updates page so you can look) "And do you want to change things, in response to these events?!" and you can choose to change your stats or not)
In most games, a respec is hard, because people are doing all sorts of wacky things as they grow and level - did you take the quest that gave you +1 strength? or the one that gave you a choice of +1 Agility or Constitution? Did you fail Main Plot-point F, and thus lost a finger and a point in dexterity (but gained the Hardiness feat)? Have you been abusing the cash shop?!
But in this game, there is one thing to track, at most - have you picked a god and done thier holy quest? (not saying that becoming the messiah of a god will give you a stat up, but saying it's possible) All other stat-ups (like, via the skill tree), are impermanent and applied by the player, not baked into the character. Respec'ing is, from that perspective, a breeze.
I have no real problem with people picking a background, other than people wanting a background that isn't available. I can see some...basic problems with letting people pick their initial skills, though, as much as I love and appreciate getting my head in the code and really cranking things through so I can get what I want. For one - what keeps someone from going for an ultimate build from the start? This isn't exactly an "issue", but it does run counter to the "explore and try everything" theme the devs seem to be aiming for.
The other is people taking the "hard to get skills" in character creation (requirements to learn - stand in a thunderstorm for 50 out-game hours, non-continuous, after you learn Lightning and Lightning Wall. Or, requirements to learn - Die in a fire 30 times. you know, the really annoying stuff), regardless of whether it's a viable start (all your skills revolve around stats you aren't good in, and take more than half your mana bar to cast), which is one of the things the devs are trying to avoid.
You can avoid theoretically solve those issues by limiting the skills to be taken initially, by semi-arbitrarily designating some skills as "Starter" or "Advanced" and letting people only pick from the starter/non-advanced skills at creation...but you'll promptly get people whining that "their" skill isn't available, and you haven't prevented someone from picking terrible skills for their build, anyways. Big mess.
By making it really arbitrary, (ie, the game picks skills based strictly on a background selected, or on stats selected) you'll at least get everyone to whine about the unfairness equally, assuming the devs don't make a total hash out of one of the initial builds/skill selections.
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Outside of automatic skill adjustment how about a way where you start your character it don’t add in the extra stats till later.
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@jetah said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
Outside of automatic skill adjustment how about a way where you start your character it don’t add in the extra stats till later.
Not sure what you mean. There are no extra stats - or, at least, no more than 1 extra stat point - that's the point I made above, that a respec is easy because there aren't 72 variables to check, keep, and maintain relating to someone's stat array.
if you mean - get into the game with nothing but the starting stats, and building the character later, I'm not sure anyone would enjoy playing with a 6 in every stat, and being the focus of every Malus effect at it's worst?
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As per Spotlight #5:
STEP #2: ATTRIBUTES
Once you’ve selected your race, it’s time you decide how to set your main character attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Perception, and Charisma.For starters, you’re given a pool of Creation Points that can be distributed among the six attributes – 100 if your new hero is a Beastman or a Demon, 120 if Human. Creation Points can be spent to increase your attributes from their minimum value of 6 up to their cap, which is normally 18 but can change according to the character’s race and family (as shown in the table below, which lists cap variations by race). If the value of an attribute is below 10, you’ll suffer maluses to all the statistics related to it – that’s why it’s convenient to raise each up to 10, particularly for inexperienced players.
I'm saying that a player shouldn't be tossed some numbers to apply not even have played the game. If every character had a base of 10 in every attribute (maybe adjusted 1-2 points for race) then they could play the game, figure if they're going to be melee, caster range or physical ranged before assigning attributes.
However, my idea has been that everyone starts at a number (decided by DS) then as they use abilities those attributes adjust higher. Quickly to 15 then slowly from 16 to 20 (specific numbers adjusted by DS of course). This allows everyone to start with a base character and change it as they see fit. This also prevents the whole "I wanted to be charismatic but my melee damage sucks. I need a free respec." Or any other type of QQ because the player didn't know how important those starting attribute points were.
We can still have gear that grants open attribute points so they can be placed anywhere and won't adjust unless the piece is removed. Or the gear can grant a static attribute points. IE you have a cloak that can grant you 2 attribute points to distribute as you want or you have a cloak that grants +2 to Intelligence.
If the attribute points don't adjust based on playing the game then DS should grant attribute points after the person is playing for a while. Either though quest or Knowledge point milestones. This prevent placing points into a stat which doesn't benefit your playstyle. (unless you want 20+ charisma because looking good is better than fighting good.)
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@therippyone I think we are on the same page. I think you should get a background with pre-chosen skills, exactly the way that they are envisioning it. I agree that you shouldn't be able to just choose any skills to begin with. I just think that after choosing a background, you should get an option of a pre-made stat allocation, or the ability to choose them yourself. That way more casual players just trying out the game can choose something that prevents them from totally screwing up their initial set-up.
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@jetah 2 problems - one, what determines which stats go down? if you start as a base 10, how do you get a stat down to 6, if that's what you want?
2nd - not strictly an issue, but also not correct, as far as I can tell - there is no equipment that adds any statistic bonus, as far as anyone can determine. From what the devs have said in various places, any sort of bonus gear gives will focus on aspects (like your run speed or lift capacity), or skills (+15% damage to this particular skill, or +5% damage to a skill type)
There are 1 or 2 skill slots that improve a stat (2 or 1 points, respectively) in each of the 6 trees, and those can be added or removed via a fireside skill respec - are those what you were thinking of?
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@needlehawk makes sense to me! XD
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@therippyone
I'd say the ones you aren't using or use less of. A skill to use Strength as primary and Dex as secondary then your Intel, Charisma could go down.I read another thread and it mentioned gear that gave stats. So I went with it. There could be some that give it, but we really won't know until later in the development cycle. I wouldn't mind seeing gear that increases the top limit of stats. IE 20 is max for an attribute but a cloak might increase it to 21 maximum.
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@jetah Everyone's max max stat is, I believe 25 (or 30? it's been 2 months since I looked). 18 is the limit of human base stats, and it varies with the others, but everyone can get temporary buffs to any stat (in theory), up to +5 (or rather, it's been described as being "very hard" to boost to +5 - I'm assuming that's a soft cap - you "could" go higher, but doing so is so difficult it's functionally impossible)
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@therippyone said in Importance of attributes triggering repetition?:
@jetah Everyone's max max stat is, I believe 25 (or 30? it's been 2 months since I looked). 18 is the limit of human base stats, and it varies with the others, but everyone can get temporary buffs to any stat (in theory), up to +5 (or rather, it's been described as being "very hard" to boost to +5 - I'm assuming that's a soft cap - you "could" go higher, but doing so is so difficult it's functionally impossible)
Bear with me here...
What if some gear has attribute stats, and there’s gear that increases the stat cap.
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One beautiful thing about this game is it’s being created. Sometimes an idea from the backers is great and is added but causes past statements to become null.
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I would like for player to be able to choose custom skills on start (out of allowed skills to chose), however to do this player should click on "custom" button, and get a warning that if he doesn't know what he's doing, he might get not so good character on start.
And then if player disregards the warning, and creates a bad starting character it's on him (deserved).
Meanwhile people who would like to customize their characters to the max on start are able to do that, and aren't prevented for the sole reason to "protect" players that are stupid.
