Master Crafters not Recipe Junkies
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First, if we must have recipes then let’s get real about it please. These things can only drop from a mob that can actually utilize a recipe; end of discussion on that one.
Second, can we please get rid of these ridiculous recipes! It was a nice thought, but not practical for many reasons, most of which have been discussed elsewhere.
My solution would be to have folks that want to be master crafters actually have to work in their chosen craft for it. There is already a good start to this in the game. Why not, once a person maxes out the primitive level they have to go to a city with the proper tech and pay a fee at that city hall to advance to the next level. This will allow the player to craft level 2 items, which should take longer and require more materials then the primitive level. Once maxing out level 2 the player again goes to the town hall of a city with the required tech and pays a fee to advance. This continues until the player has mastered their chosen craft. (I do not know what the highest level is; maybe you would only have to do this once)
This makes being a “Master Crafter” actually mean something. The player will have spent time, money, materials, and perhaps risked getting attacked, looted and killed to further their craft. As it stands now being a master crafter has little meaning as the only truly hard part is the recipe drop (and I don’t even want to talk about that)
Just a little note here to those who believe I am suggesting that we make becoming a master crafter a “grind” If you are going to be a “Master” in something you must expect to work for it. If you dislike having to work for it then it is obviously not for you and you are free to purchase you items from those who did the time. The term “Master” is suggestive of someone that took the time and should not be an easy or free title.
Just my two coppers on the subject...
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crafters mainly dont want to fight
there are a large amount of better solutionsMy ideas:
- crafting recipes could be found by crafting itself
- crafting recipes could be crafted (should not be easy)
- StormBug's solution would also be nice
- Crafting recipes could need local ressources from different countrys to make merchants more important
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@Krah said :
- crafting recipes could be crafted (should not be easy)
How about instead of having to travel to a town with a particular tech it could be any town hall. That eliminates the risk of fighting your way from town to town. At the town hall you pay a sum of gold for your advancement recipe which you then need to craft. This, like you said, should not be easy. Perhaps it could require a great deal of materials or even rare ones. It should, however, be a process that discourages the average player from becoming a "Master Crafter"
Once you have crafted your Advancement Recipe the next level is unlocked for you.
I, personally, like the element of interacting with the town hall as it adds validity to the whole process. Recipes would have to come from a legitimate source, not wolves and bears and wisps, oh my! Also paying a sum of gold makes sense as learning any craft costs money. Crafters would no longer have to be killers or magically rich to further their craft.
In my honest opinion, right now "Master Crafter" has no meaning. You need to be a “Master Killer” to be able to craft advanced recipes and crafting your way up is far too easy.
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@StormBug Could also add a new town building, A Research Center or School/library that you have to go to instead of town hall.
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@StormBug This is exactly how I feel as well. Professions (crafting in this case) should progress by using activities which are actually related to that specific profession. Like you said we have now a good starting point with the crafting progression system and now it just needs some further development. This is not a problem only with crafting, but all other aspects as well beside combat has no progession. Therefore, professions in general are just side activities which is not a smart solution in sandbox MMORPG where a lot of people are interested these activities as well. For example, every player and character are now master gatherers in any field from day one...
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adding more grind for the game is bad, the game already do not follow is original "no grind" saying, so adding make 10,000 axes and you will be master is just foolish... it will just be bot fest, or tedious stepping stone that will make sure not a lot player will want to play the game... and btw what will you do with this 10,000 axes that was made just because you forced them to make it ?
this will drive the inflation to skyhigh, and the cost of items to 0 so it will make sure being a craftsman is just garbage.
if you want to make a craftsman levels, first you must disconnect the town from crafting, so anyone that want will be able to try and achieve this, after that, you need to make a lot more level of craft, and every item should take long time and be constructed from many steps, just like its in real life... maybe even add mini game in crafting stages.
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I am very happy with how there are traveling salesmen who go around offering their skills to craft things for a fee. It gives craft persons value and demand thus enabling those who want to be crafters/traders. There will be people who want the recipes for their own convenience or to be the designated crafter for the guild, but wont go to the effort to share the effect with the greater population. I would hope that this niche remains in order to provide a valuable service to players without recipes and enjoyable outlet for people who like trading/crafting and helping out others.
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This will happen only if recipes are use limited items, or the market saturates and everyone will be able to craft.
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@grofire It depends totally which kind of system will be implemented and it does not automatically mean that markets are screwed even progressing in crafting needs actually crafting things. Furthermore, it is not extra grind if the current recipe grind (grinding mobs) is moved to crafting.
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@GamerSeuss said in Master Crafters not Recipe Junkies:
Could also add a new town building, A Research Center or School/library that you have to go to instead of town hall.
I like this idea. It is more appropriate than the town hall, as well as adding to the overall feel of the game.
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@StormBug said in Master Crafters not Recipe Junkies:
folks that want to be master crafters actually have to work in their chosen craft for it. There is already a good start to this in the game. Why not, once a person maxes out the primitive level they have to g
I agree, the current recipe systems seems a bit lackluster compared to the other systems. I feel like a research building that you somehow invest into would be a fun option. Maybe the crafter has to fill random NPC orders of actual crafted goods similar to how ESO does the daily crafting missions?
The orders could even be tailored to how this game uses the system, so maybe to unlock shortbow or longbow you need to supply the research table with x number of primitive bows with x imbue on it, or even a combination of a bunch of imbues whick would require the crafter to either purchase, loot, or be given the mats for those imbues?
Just an idea.
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@GamerSeuss said in Master Crafters not Recipe Junkies:
@StormBug Could also add a new town building, A Research Center or School/library that you have to go to instead of town hall.
I like this idea because then all researches can be found easily from one building.
I would like to see a research system where resources and crafted products could be used to progress in different crafting paths and unlock crafting recipes. This would also work as a resource and item sink.
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What you are suggesting would only perpetuate a problem that is prevalent in this economy: everyone can do everything.
I know this is the kind of thinking across a lot of modern MMOs and especially themeparks but if everyone is able to craft everything, no one is a specialist. No matter how grindy you make things - and it can get ridiculously grindy - every non-terrible town will have tons of specialists of every profession. At the very least, the current recipe system does bring some competition and forces people to invest in their crafts (buy recipes or farm them) to get full sets.
What we need are things that force us to make choices, that make our characters unique.
I, personally, like the recipe system and believe they should expand upon it. Add more unique recipes for more unique sets. Add them to weapon crafting. Add them to socketing and imbuing. Add them to cooking and animal handling (different nets?). Moreover, make it so we can only master one profession and add more professions; artisans for decor/furniture making, lockpicks (which should seriously be moved out of the talent respec nonsense at every campfire), siege engineers, blacksmiths, imbuers, jewelers, tailors, leatherworkers, fishermen, cooks, etc.
It should be difficult and a money/time investment to be the best master craftsman of your chosen profession. You could also add another layer of mastery by having to master not only your general profession but the crafting of specific items: for example, a Master Blacksmith (t4) could be only an Apprentice (t2) Battlemage Armor crafter, giving different bonuses.
Towns could further specialize by having to make more choices. No more of this nonsense where every town unlocks every tech. No. Towns should have to either be medium jack-of-all-trades or heavy in one or two specializations. Make them work for it too; a town library or laboratory could ask for specific mats to level/unlock specific research, which boosts general market demand for certain goods.
We certainly don't need to simplify the current system. We need to expand it.
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@Ulfnaor This goes against one of the basic pillars of thought that sold many players on FO, however.
One of their key selling points is that in fact everyone can do everything, that there are NO unique items, and that with just 1 character, you can explore all the various options as you want. No need to 'pick a professional skill' or 'stay in your lane' with regards to your archetype.
Making people choose which crafts to specialize in, and once made, those things can't be changed is contrary to what FO engenders. At best, you could link crafting skills into the skill system so a person might have to change pre-sets when they change skill practices, but everyone should be able to do everything.
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Yeah agree.
This game is very much "No-alt needed" oriented.
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@Ulfnaor said in Master Crafters not Recipe Junkies:
What you are suggesting would only perpetuate a problem that is prevalent in this economy: everyone can do everything.
I know this is the kind of thinking across a lot of modern MMOs and especially themeparks but if everyone is able to craft everything, no one is a specialist. No matter how grindy you make things - and it can get ridiculously grindy - every non-terrible town will have tons of specialists of every profession.
This is not true and Albion is one good example of why. In theory everyone can do freely everything in Albion, however, that is behind a huge timewall. It is much more efficient to specialize yourself because most likely this will be more profitable at the end. In Albion the economy works really well and it is satisfying how easy it is to trade stuff you have gathered, refined or crafted.
Moreover, players are so different and we have completionist who wants to do all the stuff by themselfs, and then we have those who do not want do professions at all. Then we have every possible combination between these two extremes. Therefore, if everyone have in theory a possibility to do everything that does not automatically mean this will happen simply because no interest and/or not enough time to do so.
Economy will not be destroyed even in theory everyone could do everything. This is a matter of design and how the economy in whole is build. I do not want that everyone can do easily everything because that will undermine position of players who wants to focus on crafting for example. Thus, adding some progression systems to professions will help people to specialize.
Even I have said that recipes should be unlock via professions and especially via crafting, I think that some specific recipes could drop from humanoid mobs, which would make perfectly sense.
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@spoletta said in Master Crafters not Recipe Junkies:
Yeah agree.
This game is very much "No-alt needed" oriented.
It depends. If the possibility to reroll attributes will be removed for launch, like hinted before that players get one reroll and after that you can do it with real money, then alts are needed to get other classes covered for example. Otherwise alts could be used to play on different planets and/or having a good and evil character separated in Syndesia.
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@GamerSeuss Everyone being able to do everything doesn't everyone necessarily needs to be able to unlock every recipe and be able to be a master of everything. There are limitations in abilities and talents, for example, and you're not asking for them to be removed. Or maybe you are, who knows.
I have not read this broad mission statement of which you seem to be the chief priest, judging by your other posts, but would love to. In any case, poor game design is still poor game design and people being allowed to master everything (with crafting in its current state) is just a recipe for disaster and makes crafting entirely irrelevant within a few months as there'll be thousands of people with maxed out crafting in everything. It also makes crafting particularly uninspired and merely a mats grind (and this game has an easy one).
@spoletta Is it, though? You need citizens to make towns. This, in itself, has been promoting alts. People move things safely with alts. Alts can be in other towns and make use of better facilities than your main. Alts can also be in other towns to steal their stuff or sabotage their crops while your main is safe with his friends. One can use PvP alts to terrorize a specific region without having to go around and cross an entire map back and forth. Hell, people will most definitely have alts on other planets if other planets ever come. There's plenty, in the game design, that favors alting.
Moreover, the idea behind expanding crafting wouldn't be to favor alts but to favor specializations and cooperation. Yes, some of you will instantly think "well, I'll make an alt and do two or more professions" but that's still more time spent, more resources collected and mobs farmed. Most people cannot do that solo and shouldn't do that solo. If no one specializes, then every town and character is just the same and, while that may seem enticing, it just leads to boredom and every town living in full autarky as no one needs anything. It's the opposite of a living and vibrant game world.
I have a feeling, however, that I'm about to be told that asking people to cooperate or group up, in a MMO, goes against some credo of Fractured.
@Tuoni Comparing this current economy with Albion's economy is laughable. First, Albion's crafting system has a multi-tier system of specialization where one not only becomes a master blacksmith but a master plate armor and then a master "chestplate" maker. Our system does not have that. Moreover, Albion's economy benefits from gear destruction. We don't. At most, we have an extremely forgiving durability system.
If you want an economy that works, you need to have at least an equal amount of resources spent vs. resources coming in. We are far, far, far away from that. Not only are we tremendously far away from that point but most of you are arguing for even easier mechanics. No gear break! More durability! We should all be masters of everything!
The current crafting system is a barebones system that you seem to want to defend at all costs. Are "dropped recipes" a good idea? It's a bandaid, an easy-to-implement idea to supplement a very basic system. The fact of the matter is that the current system, outside of enchanting, is really easy to master. You want to talk Albion? Getting to Master in Fractured takes about one hundredth of the resources (comparatively speaking) it takes to go 100/100 for a given weapon/piece of gear on Albion, if not less.
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@Ulfnaor
The last thing I would want to do is simplify the crafting system. How you got that from anything I said is beyond me. I am all for making it more difficult and I thought I was making that clear when I said “If you are going to be a “Master” in something you must expect to work for it.” Also, as I already stated previously in this thread, killing mobs for recipes has no place in the crafting system, but that does not mean make crafting easy.I hate the current system for obtaining recipes; it makes no sense to me. What we could do though is craft items to obtain a recipe. Example: each crafting station could simply have an “attempt to acquire recipe” function. You place the materials for the item you are trying to craft into the crafting table and select “attempt to acquire recipe” and you have a percentage chance of obtaining the item. The crafting tables already know if you don’t have the required recipe so why not let us try to get it right there? Your percentage chance could be based on the rarity of the materials that you are using.
This will allow folks to master the craft that they wish to and not just what the game forces on them by some random recipe drop. It would also make a nice way to remove resources from the game.
It really would be nice to see crafting expanded upon. I was a crafter in EQ2 and you could get seriously hurt crafting in that game. You actually had to pay attention and interact with the process, not just to avoid injury to your character but to obtain the highest level of quality in the item possible. I am not asking for that level of crafting but more levels would certainly be nice.
As for more items and/or categories, absolutely, but I would like the basics fixed first.
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@StormBug I agree
I don't want crafting simplified, I would love a rich, dynamic crafting system. I want everyone able to participate to their own degree, but lock parts away behind time walls. You want to be a Master Leather Worker, then you don't necessarily have time to also be a Master Platesmith and a Master Alchemist. You got the time and attention span, however, go for it.
Also, @Ulfnaor I think you are misunderstanding @spoletta when he said this is an anti-alt system. The game does encourage alts for each planet, for instance, which is why I believe at launch, they intend to allow like 3 characters by default, and I know some Packs granted bonus character slots...however, Alts for things like Citizenship won't work on the same planet, because Citizenship is Account-bound, not Character bound. You also apply for Citizenship based on your Account name, so you can't make an alt to sneak-join a town and undermine it, because eventually, your account name will be notorious.
This means nefarious Alt'ing will be requiring paying for the game multiple times. A good deterrent. Not perfect, but good.
I think a lot of players actually fully intend to have a character based on 2 or even all 3 planets eventually. (some of us hate PvP enough that we'd probably not do the Demon world at all)
