The Potential City Problem.
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@Roccandil said in The Potential City Problem.:
@Nekrage said in The Potential City Problem.:
@Roccandil said in The Potential City Problem.:
The above scenario is not free:
You must pay real money for each account;
Righttttt....and that gives you an ADVANTAGE.
As it stands it's required to be the most efficient. That's P2W.
No, it isn't.
Yes. It is.
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@Nekrage said in The Potential City Problem.:
@Roccandil said in The Potential City Problem.:
The above scenario is not free:
You must pay real money for each account;
Righttttt....and that gives you an ADVANTAGE.
As it stands it's required to be the most efficient. That's P2W.
Let me know when you manage to get all your alt accounts into different cities of rival guilds to âobtainâ all the resources you want and then haul them to your main account city manually.
See if that is more âefficientâ than trading routes.
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@Sativo you are thinking about it the wrong way and I wonât tell you how I will be performing this if this is not fixed.
As long as itâs not cheating we will do what it takes to be the best including abusing this major flaw in the game until it is fixed.
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@Razvan said in The Potential City Problem.:
@Roccandil
What is the minimum number of active players a town-owning guild should have? Is 50 enough? What is the difference between a big 200 members guild split into 4 towns, and 4 medium-sized (50 members) guilds which own one town each?Since gold is a scarce resource, let's look at the example continent we've got. I count nine gold nodes. I can't tell from the map whether any of the cities are large, so let's assume they're all small: five citizens each to at least keep the city, so forty-five players at a minimum (assuming the guild can claim all the city plots first).
Forty-five players is easy, but feeding nine cities without cereal nodes will be a challenge. Our monopoly-oriented guild will have a few options:
- Trade gold for cereals (reducing the effectiveness of their monopoly);
- Grow each city to unlock another node for cereal (if that's possible, and if so, the citizen requirements will increase);
- Devote valuable space in each city to crops (sacrificing space for houses and crafting buildings, probably ensuring the towns will always remain small and low on the tech tree);
- Build even more cities devoted to cereals to transport to the gold cities (requires many more citizens).
I'm seeing significant risk, cost, difficulty, and downsides to attempting a one-guild monopoly, which indicates good game balance.
Griefing, on the other hand, is generally a low-cost activity. Since this isn't, I don't have a problem with a one-guild monopoly theoretically being possible on Arboreus (although I suspect any actual monopolies will occur via collusion among guilds).
Also, I'd expect gold nodes to be on all three continents, making a monopoly harder to achieve.
You can't base a game mechanic on the wishful thinking that maybe everyone will refuse to trade with a certain guild.
This isn't a question of intention, but capability. As long as the potential exists for everyone else to sanction a guild (or guilds) with a monopoly, that's good enough for me.
PS: What do you mean exactly with "economic PvP"? Materials obtained from PvE are also resources and a big part of Arboreus. If they don't change their vision and the game gets popular, you'll have zones like the Vale with a bunch of groups trying to steal each other's mobs because they can't dispute farming spots. Or more realistically, the level of Albion's blue zone griefing when it went f2p.
From my perspective, the above scenario of a guild (or guilds) attempting to gain a monopoly, and the diplomatic efforts from other guilds to counter the monopolists (arranging sanctions, looking for alternate trade sources, etc.), are all economic PvP.
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@Ostaff My point on alts kind of got blurred I think. It wasn't well written lol. When I said put safe guards in place I meant things like cooldowns and timers to prevent players from using their alts to their advantage jumping guilds/cities, using them as scouts for pvp etc...
Players should only be allowed to join one guild on their characters. These are the things I was thinking about.I'm fully for having as many alts as your account allows.
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I agree 100% with the ONE guild per account statement. The spying kiddos would have a field day in Fractured without a limitation like that.
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Only positive thing what alts can provide is that people have a possibility to freely test and play different races and in different planets if they want to. Everything else alts bring on the table are more or less harmfull to the game. I am not sure what would be the best solution for Fractured but I understand @Nekrage concern to this matter.
Trading resources sounds more like a beautiful thought rather than what it will actually be in practise. I am not saying that trading would not happen at all, however, I am quite sure that "trading" will be done mainly via alts, and not just between cities, but also between different planets. That is at least how competitive guilds will manage the resources.
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Aye, I had gotten the gist of what you ment, As I said, I think the "different alts in different guilds" is a guild problem and not a game problem. The guild themselves should handle that, as I already stated, our guild has already implemented structure to cover someone from doing that with us upon beta release. And if we are able to get a specific back-end tie-in from Prometheus, we will be able to cover the multiple account issue as well. I would rather the devs work on making the game better than having to work on issues such as these. The alt issues are common issues that appear in any pvp based game, and I would think that most main based pvp guilds (like ours) already have their own system in place for dealing with it.
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I see trading between planets to be the main thing, as even a single map guild (there will be 3 maps per planet from what I understand) will be able to collect most all of their planetary resources themselves if they are big enough. What matters is just how much of those resources we will need at city level which will prompt for more trade on a local planetary basis. I still don't see this as an "alt" thing though, since that would really be a LOT of potential work for a single person to cover, but more of a "guild" thing with the guild using its many members to farm the resources needed. As you stated, I really don't see how an "alt" will effect the game that much. This will mostly be about how "big" or "influential" your guild is as the more members you have, the more resources you will have. All and "alt" will really do, is give a single person the ability to make themselves more self-sufficient if they wish to live out in the wilds (so to say).
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There will be ALTs, period. How do I know this...simple, the Champion Backer Tier includes 2 Additional Character Slots. As with most games of this nature, you can expect at least 2 slots by default as well. People have already backed at the Champion Level, and are still able to upgrade to that level, so Alts are NOT going away as an option. How ALTs are handled may become a thing, but there will be ALTs on almost all accounts.
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Trading WILL happen. Whether it will be to the extent that Fractured intends, who's to say until the game goes live, BUT there are enough RP type players backing this game that these players at least will be trading for resources. The entire structure of the Beastman world will lend itself to trading over fighting as its a universal NO PVP zone.
The best way to prevent multi-accounting is to allow a good enough number of ALTs on each account by default. In general, unless they are specifically doing the Multi-Account thing to try to break a system (and paying the price for it) people will be more likely to use up their free Alt options before going to paying for another account.
Account locking Guild/City/House membership per planet is a good way to help manage a lot of the worry I see here. Since each planet is Racially biased, and Guilds are also currently Race-locked, obviously playing an Alt with a different race (which is a big motivator for RP Alt playing) will necessitate a new Guild/Home/etc...
As to mega-guilds trying to develop monopolies. sure, some of them might attempt it, but there are enough of us ready to jump in on day one of the game's release that they might get a majority, but its doubtful they will get all on any given world or even continent. Now, with the ability to Siege on 2 of the 3 worlds, expanding their monopolies this way may happen, BUT there is the option for smaller cities to band together to repell such attacks, AND like many games have done in the past, after a Guild/Group reaches too much of a deadlock, the option to open up another world server is generally explored to 'start things over' again.
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@Ostaff The problem of alts is not just PvP based, it is also player driven economy based, perhaps even more. I am not speaking behalf solo, casual, PvE oriented, RPG guilds, because those can have very different approach to the game at first place. There is nothing wrong in those aspects and I enjoy somewhat of those parts of the game too. However, when speaking of competitive, semi-hardcore or hardcore guilds the mentality is totally different. Every advantage or loop hole what there is available will be used for sure and if you do not you will fall behind from the curve. Alts can be used to get the maximum benefit especially from the economy. Every competitive guild will ensure that they will have access to every resource of the game they need, this might mean sub alt guilds on different planets to get that easy access resources needed. Only concern is transportation which can be handled with guild caravans with very low risk if planned well.
I know there will be alts and most likely that is something what cannot be changed because extra slots are included to the packages as well. Also different races and different planets supports alts which makes the whole topic quite hard to handle well. Alts do not have only negative impact to the economy and those will be used for spying and camping as well. The game would be much healthier without any alts and in perfect situation only 1 character / account would be great, then you character's choises would truly matter and number of system abuses would drop a lot. In Fractured this is very hard to see happen because of the different races and class lock (because of attributes). In conclusion, alts will harm the game but it is also hard to see any reasonable solution to fix that problem.
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Aye, the larger guilds will definitely have sub guilds on all planets and will be fully self-reliant on the resources they need, and they will have their "guild transport caravans". That is a very true statement. I think the reason for "account locking" planet membership was done specifically with that in mind. Again, there was no need for guild locking, since they basically did that with the property lock, and this way a non-hard core player is able to join multiple guilds on the same planet with their alts if they want to. No biggie.
I still do not think nor see how an alt will effect a game, sorry. none of the reasons I have seen thus far have much merit. And as GamerSeus stated....there will be alts. There is no doubt there will be alts. So it is best for guilds who do not like that fact, to start working on being able to handle that fact. Cause regardless, of what I think, the devs have made the game with the intention of having alts from ground up. Thus, as with the "portals" polling months earlier, it is a worthless cause to debate it. It will be.
(Now, if only we can persuade them to add a Camera movement and WASD stylem movement system.... sigh... if only it "could" happen)
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Also, only from a very narrow set of standards would alts 'ruin' the game. To a vast majority of players out there, removal of the ability to play alternate characters would drop the appeal of the game to the point many would back out of backing/playing altogether. Why do I say this? Because, especially in the beginning of a release, players are going to want to experiment with the different races and builds. Most, if not all MMORPG players I know tend to keep at least 3 characters in whatever game they play. 1 is their main character, they spend 70% of their time playing, 1 is their backup character, where they do most of their experimental stuff with before commiting their main to trying new things, and 1 is their totally casual character, one they build usually of the opposite archetype of what they normally prefer, just to get the feel of that other archetypes play in the game, and to have a character of that sort in case friends/family want to jump in and play a few sessions together. They don't necessarily want to stop whatever their doing on their Main account to go play with the cousins or the in-laws or whatever, or guide a noob through the start of the game, so they have this casual character for that. If limited to only 2 character slots, the #2 and #3 types listed are combined, and often deleted/respec'd as needed to fit the bill at any given time.
ANY game of multiple archetypes and races is going to attract players who want to try it all. Even in a game where a character can do everything, all the skills, all the talent builds, all the crafting/fighting/building/sieging, they will still want to try out the different Races and Base Classes/Archetypes, if for no other reason than that touch of variety, and so they can say to their friends they've played it all.
My favorite class in D&D is a Bard, typically I play a Human or Halfelven Bard as my go to for serious campaigns, however in my 42 years of playing D&D, I've played just about every official WotC/TSR race/class combination that has ever come out, even Paladins, and I HATE PALADINS. Why, so as a DM, or just a teacher, helping new players, I can tell them some of how the gameplay feels using that archetype. MMORPGs are an extension of my love of TTRPGs, and I approach them the same way. I want to kick the tires, and put the game through its paces, something you can never fully do with only 1 character.
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@Ostaff said in The Potential City Problem.:
Aye, the larger guilds will definitely have sub guilds on all planets and will be fully self-reliant on the resources they need, and they will have their "guild transport caravans". That is a very true statement. I think the reason for "account locking" planet membership was done specifically with that in mind. Again, there was no need for guild locking, since they basically did that with the property lock, and this way a non-hard core player is able to join multiple guilds on the same planet with their alts if they want to. No biggie.
I still do not think nor see how an alt will effect a game, sorry. none of the reasons I have seen thus far have much merit. And as GamerSeus stated....there will be alts. There is no doubt there will be alts. So it is best for guilds who do not like that fact, to start working on being able to handle that fact. Cause regardless, of what I think, the devs have made the game with the intention of having alts from ground up. Thus, as with the "portals" polling months earlier, it is a worthless cause to debate it. It will be.
(Now, if only we can persuade them to add a Camera movement and WASD stylem movement system.... sigh... if only it "could" happen)
No one is asking for alts to be removed although that would certainly increase the quality of the game and support the competitive side of this game which casuals like yourself seem to forget exists
âThere is no need for guild lockingâ Oh my sweet summer child. I have seen it ALL. The spying, the stealing of guild materials, the EVE Online level scamming...it WILL happen. This game needs guild limitations. There is NO reason a player should be in more than one guild. Join a real guild.
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Guess it kind of depends on what you mean by Casuals.
Hardcore Roleplayers are just as serious as Hardcore PvPs and Dedicated Guilders, even if they are solo and want to roleplay multiple characters based on the given situation from day to day.
MMORPGs are both for community/guild/competitive play, AND for shared world solo play, and Guilds/Group-Raiders need to remember that just because our fun isn't your fun doesn't make us any less 'serious' gamers out there.
I take offense to being called a casual out of hand. I'm not an eSports Virtual Athlete by any means, BUT I am a Streamer and a gamer with over 42 years of gaming under my belt. I just always leaned more towards the solo aspects of the MMOs I played. Coordinating raids with big groups and major guilds might be for some people, but its not everyone's cup of tea, and not choosing that road doesn't make someone casual. I will admit, in the last few years, I've fallen to being more of a casual player in videogames, devoting most of my more serious gaming time to TTRPGs instead, but that's only because of a serious lack of any kind of MMORPG that I could truly sink my teeth into. Fractured has the makings of being one of the greatest MMORPGs I've seen in a long time, and more, it appeals to Serious gamers like Me, not just catering to the Guild/Raider types and PvPers like some games do, but it does make that style of play viable as well.
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Then you should already know how to stop people in your guild from joining another guild. If not, don't worry, TSE will show you how it is done. After all, we are a real guild.
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@Ostaff said in The Potential City Problem.:
Then you should already know how to stop people in your guild from joining another guild. If not, don't worry, TSE will show you how it is done. After all, we are a real guild.
Haha! No, youâre not.
You have multiple guild leaders and multiple guilds in one guild. You already had a falling out and you have no history and no past accomplishments.
You are new to the MMO world which is obvious by your lack of achievements in the genre and understandIng of how players WILL abuse and exploit a system for their own benefits if permitted.
Also...isnât your guild looking forward to New World? Haha!
Back on topic. Fracturedâs systems have holes in them that are going to be abused til the end of days if these holes are not plugged.
I have been through all of this in every MMO and I can call it from a mile away. I will personally be abusing this system if itâs not fixed. I prefer it to be fixed.
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Thankfully, I don't have to stoop to the child level you like going to in order to point out "your" fallouts. Your own members have done that for me in the forums and chat.
And yes, we ARE a conglomerate of guilds. Guilds that span ever aspect of the play zone that have come together to make one main guild here in Fractured. This is definitely not a negative, though I am very glad to see you can't see far enough to realize that. Cause this allows us to have expertise in everything Fractured is wanting to share with us. And allows us to offer our members experiences that they want.And yes, I personally can not wait for New World and Ashes of Creation to come out
Too bad some people were banned from them 
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@Ostaff what falling out has my guild had? Would love to know considering we have been a guild for 15+ years and you guys have been for what...a few months? Lol.
Going to be quite enjoyable watching your guild fall apart with your continued drama I see in your Discord
Also I wasnât banned from New World nor Ashes of Creation, nice try. I publicly called out their horrible treatment of the MMO community and stand by my words.
HAHAHAHAHAH! Ashes of Creation! Supporting the dude who literally tried to BUY MY GUILD in Archeage and was BANNED from Italy for running a pyramid scheme. Banned from a country...it takes a lot of scum baggery to be banned from a damn country. GL supporting garbage like that.
And remember, you started this.
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@Ostaff by all means, involve us average members, because other than one rando who claimed to be with us but conflated multiple things during the time period he said he was in we have not really had anyone besmirch the guild name. and no nek was not banned from new world. now by all means bang out the lesson on how to use fake accounts to inflate numbers. i am waiting with bated breath.
