Tanning Tubs Are a Disaster
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@Alexian This is roght off the website under About
ABOUT FRACTURED
Fractured is the first open-world sandbox MMORPG mixing action combat with fully interactable environments, appealing equally to lovers of competitive and cooperative gameplay. Jump right into the fray from day one. Defeat your enemies through your own skill and cleverness, not equipment or level. Gather resources, craft, trade and venture into legendary travels as a solitary hero, or start a settlement with your guild and grow it into the next empire.Where in there does it say playing Fractured is going to be tons of time waiting on timers, hardcore real work to play? In fact, the premise I would assert is it is a game where you jump right in having fun. Doesn't sound like they are implying you are going to be having huge time sinks for the things you do. What other players have talked about in the forums or in Discord that you may be inferring to is not what is listed here on the website description.
Life is Feudal had timers on all their crafting/growing. If you weren't there within the hour of it ending you lost everything. I don't want to see that in this game also.
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@Farlander said in Tanning Tubs Are a Disaster:
@Alexian This is roght off the website under About
ABOUT FRACTURED
Fractured is the first open-world sandbox MMORPG mixing action combat with fully interactable environments, appealing equally to lovers of competitive and cooperative gameplay. Jump right into the fray from day one. Defeat your enemies through your own skill and cleverness, not equipment or level. Gather resources, craft, trade and venture into legendary travels as a solitary hero, or start a settlement with your guild and grow it into the next empire.Where in there does it say playing Fractured is going to be tons of time waiting on timers, hardcore real work to play? In fact, the premise I would assert is it is a game where you jump right in having fun. Doesn't sound like they are implying you are going to be having huge time sinks for the things you do. What other players have talked about in the forums or in Discord that you may be inferring to is not what is listed here on the website description.
Life is Feudal had timers on all their crafting/growing. If you weren't there within the hour of it ending you lost everything. I don't want to see that in this game also.
I've emphasized specific words in the description you provided that indicate expenditure of player time and effort. "Gather," "grow," "venture," and an emphasis on "skill and cleverness" clearly oppose the notion of instant gratification in Fractured.
More importantly, specific features I've mentioned - such as bending over and picking up items, one at a time - have been inherent to the game since its very first playable Alpha tests.
From description to dev journals to gameplay, Fractured is clearly not intended to be akin to a mobile or Facebook game for casual players. Time, effort, organization, logistics, and administration play key roles in this game and the devs have been fully transparent about this fact from day one.
Respectfully, it seems like you want Fractured to become something completely antithetical to its conception. It's certainly your right to advocate for changes you feel are appropriate, but I stridently disagree with the nature of those proposed changes.
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Grow? Um that refers to guilds growing not crops. I can emphasize "jump right in" to apply to everything in the game if you like and that trumps anything else you can say about putting effort into it. I understand gathering resources need timers because otherwise someone could just sit at a spot and gather all they need on a macro. I'm talking about timers put on crafting tools. That is mobile game to the core. I fully agree that the game should have ""work" otherwise you don't feel accomplishment for completing a goal. I'm pretty sure this thread was about timers being put upon tools you used to process your raw ingredients for crating. I'm a firm no on having those. I feel tanning tubs should instantly process your hides.
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@Farlander said in Tanning Tubs Are a Disaster:
Grow? Um that refers to guilds growing not crops.
Yes, but that's only one of the many adjectives I emphasized from the description you provided and contributes to an overall theme: in Fractured, endeavors require player effort and time.
I can emphasize "jump right in" to apply to everything in the game if you like and that trumps anything else you can say about putting effort into it.
Not really, no, since the rest of the description that you provided describes the "fray" into which you may "jump right into."
Considering the description's emphasis on deliberate, methodical action, it's pretty clear that Fractured is referring to an emphasis on player skill and effort over vertical levels/attributes and gear progression.
I understand gathering resources need timers because otherwise someone could just sit at a spot and gather all they need on a macro. I'm talking about timers put on crafting tools. That is mobile game to the core. I fully agree that the game should have ""work" otherwise you don't feel accomplishment for completing a goal. I'm pretty sure this thread was about timers being put upon tools you used to process your raw ingredients for crating. I'm a firm no on having those. I feel tanning tubs should instantly process your hides.
The reason time constraints are imposed on various mechanics is because Fractured is clearly not a game concerned with instant gratification. Time and effort involved in the gathering and manufacturing of goods will directly contribute to the value and scarcity of those goods, which will help shape various local economies and the consumer psychology of players in the game. Do they spend this time and effort by crafting these goods themselves or do they purchase/trade what they need from vendors? If the latter, where do they go? What towns do they join? Do they join a guild? If so, which guilds? There's rich content opportunity that derives from making gathering/crafting inconvenient.
It's perfectly reasonable to dislike the length of time or to even lobby for a shorter window. And as I said, you're perfectly free to lobby for instant gratification with respect to tanning or any other aspect of the game. I simply respectfully disagree with it and believe you'll find it difficult to advocate for these changes successfully since they seem to contrast sharply with the very conceit of the game.
Also, please @ me in future responses so I don't miss your replies.
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At this point, this discussion seems hijacked into a personal debate about the goals of the game.
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@Grimshok said in Tanning Tubs Are a Disaster:
At this point, this discussion seems hijacked into a personal debate about the goals of the game.
The topics exist closely on a continuum and are germane to one another.
@Farlander wants instantaneous leather tanning for the sake of convenience (a legitimate position to have), I'm respectfully challenging that idea and its motivation. Our disparate goals for this game and the developers' goals for the game are too important to ignore in a discussion of the topic.
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@Alexian You are correct in your summary. And both view points have merit; and I stated above my viewpoint which is similar to yours. That being said, the discussion describing the developers goals and intent of the game based on one source, and the 'WHY' a certain viewpoint should have more weight based off of the loosely-described concepts of what gameplay MAY be, is where the germane approaches inane.
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I also agree that this game doesn't need to degenerate into 'instant gratification' in everything.
I want Crafting to be as involved as combat an gathering is, if not more so, so I think some crafts requiring a timer is an excellent way to make it more tangible in game, and as was said, it also adds value to the end products. Everything in this game is Player Created, and so much can be instantly finished, but certain things need to take a little time.
Enchantment makes sense to be instantaneous, it's magic, you expect it to be done in a single application of a process. You don't leave something bubbling in the magic circle for 20 mins or 3 hrs.
Leather tanning, on the other hand, is generally at least an overnight endeavor, so 16 hrs for tanning is not unreasonable to assume. Could they shorten it a little, based on in-game days vs out of game day perspectives? Sure, maybe make it 8hrs instead, assuming that the in-game clock moves faster relatively, than our out of time world.
Something like Alchemy, a magical branch of chemistry, might also be something that had to brew for awhile before completion, in the story-books and legends these games are loosely based around, you expect a witch or Sorcerer to tend their magic potions for a period of time before reaching a result, but something like just enchanting somehting is done with a spell and it's finished. In fact, Alchemical reactions might even be multi-step things, where you add the initial ingredients in and start the process, then a 20 minute timer starts, any time after that 20 mins elapses, maybe up to 24 hrs later, you can begin the next step by adding more ingredients, and starting another timer, maybe an hour this time. Magical storage chests could be next to Alchemy labs, so if you know your going to be away longer than the spoil counter would be, you could pull your partially done concoction from the crafting station and put it into the storage locker, which would Freeze the concoction timers until you come back and resume your work.All rough ideas, but all would make this game so much more immersive and enjoyable to a certain class of players.
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Why can't tanning tubs be placed in city house plots? Seems like an artificial limitation that has led to all sorts of problems.
The developers could even configure tubs to be placeable in city-based house plots only once the tanner is built.
That way the tanner is important, the city is important, but citizens still get control over their own tanning tub(s).
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Not that Realism and historical accuracy is 100% important, but it is worth noting that in medieval times, and even in frontier days, tanning tubs were not something you traditionally had in your homestead at all, because of the smell.
Where you did your tanning was usually in an out of the way shed or cabin (frontiers) or in a specific quarter of the city (medieval) and that city quarter usually had some distinctive nomenclature like "Stink Alley" because of it. The smell of leather tanning pervades an entire house and for a good bit around it, and ventilation and such may or may not be easily possible in smaller spaces where such fumes could become toxic. I can see not having tanneries in individual houses in town, and requiring them to be outside or in a separate outbuilding in solo plots for this reason to aid in the versimilitude of the overall game.
Again, though, it's about how much realism and historical accuracy you want.
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@Roccandil Because a city full of tanning tubs would smell like a city full of tanning tubs and no one would want to live there.
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If the developers want to model smells in cities, awesome, but if so, I see two inconsistencies:
- The tannery is still in the city, and can be placed anywhere with no "smell" penalties.
- Even more reason to allow players to tan hides in wilderness home plots.
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@Roccandil Smell penalties, LMAO I pretty much meant big picture. Industry is usually located away from homes and industry that smells well away. Right now those playing outside of cities have multiple city dwellers willing to trade hides for leather so you can get away without needing a tub in your wilderness home.
I am seeing multiple ideas passed around to solve the issue about tanning hides and that doesn't include what our fearless leaders already have in mind, so I am sure that we will end up with a solution that works for everyone in the end.
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Stealing is not allowed on the Beast world. So in keeping with that ruleset other players should not be allowed to steal your hides that you spent TIME and EFFORT gathering only to take them from you while they were in a tanning tub. I don't care about realism, I don't care about some fake smell that doesn't even exist. What I care about is the game not allowing other players to steal from me when I can't do anything about it. In real life I could call a cop or just shoot their asses lol. That's not possible in the game so where is the realism there?
It's a situation that needs to be addressed and I'm sure an oversight by the devs. They have alot on their plate right now with all the bugs. I offered a solution with instant tanning tools. Another would be to instance the tanning tub itself to each player so that others can not access your hides. Maybe even have security levels put on the tub to allow all, guild, friend or own to access. I can live with timers as long as the hides do not disappear after a time length because real life happens and being in a game is not the priority of life. It's supposed to be enjoyable. If it becomes a point of frustration and work then what's the point of playing. These are my opinions but I'm sure some share them and some disagree. Hopefully a good common ground can be found.
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@Farlander said in Tanning Tubs Are a Disaster:
Stealing is not allowed on the Beast world. So in keeping with that ruleset other players should not be allowed to steal your hides that you spent TIME and EFFORT gathering only to take them from you while they were in a tanning tub. I don't care about realism, I don't care about some fake smell that doesn't even exist. What I care about is the game not allowing other players to steal from me when I can't do anything about it. In real life I could call a cop or just shoot their asses lol. That's not possible in the game so where is the realism there?
It's a situation that needs to be addressed and I'm sure an oversight by the devs. They have alot on their plate right now with all the bugs. I offered a solution with instant tanning tools. Another would be to instance the tanning tub itself to each player so that others can not access your hides. Maybe even have security levels put on the tub to allow all, guild, friend or own to access. I can live with timers as long as the hides do not disappear after a time length because real life happens and being in a game is not the priority of life. It's supposed to be enjoyable. If it becomes a point of frustration and work then what's the point of playing. These are my opinions but I'm sure some share them and some disagree. Hopefully a good common ground can be found.
To clarify, my initial response to you in this thread was concerning the matter of timers, not the matter of people simply stealing other players' hard-earned and time-invested products.
For the sake of clarity, I completely agree with you that Fractured should implement preventative or retributive methods to deter thieving in cities, even if enforcement is left in the hands of city governors and their NPC guards. As you say, in real life there's redress for criminal conduct which often deters widespread griefing.
While I support a hardcore/"realistic" game, I also accept that without clever, immersive safeguards to help incentivize "good" behavior and deter "bad" behavior, this game will likely die out like most other sandbox MMOs do.
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@Alexian said
Considering the premise of Fractured as a sandbox with "hardcore"/inconvenient elements like having to physically bend over and pick up lumber, one log at a time, and place it in a handcart in order to move it from A to B... I expect that, to the devs and many of the backers, that's part of the fun. Count me among them; the end result is that I feel like I've truly accomplished something when it takes time and effort.
Playing this game is reminding this old hippie of one of the Substance Users Pearls of Wisdom(tm):
"When you're high, every task is a production number. When you're tripping, it's an ordeal."Fractured breaks down so many goals a person might choose into LOTS of component parts (hmmm... the name is more apt than I'd realized til just this moment). That's a feature, not a bug, so if you hate that it's a good thing to find out NOW.
