Concerns related to the attributes
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@Tuoni said in Concerns related to the attributes:
This your example is not even near enough good reason when compared how much quality of life the option to change attributes will bring on the table. It is also quite selfish approach to try deny the option from others just because you personally want to protect your character's identity. Identity can also be important for players who want or need the attribute change, they just gives less value to the attribute points and focus more on character progression or their actions in game, for example.
@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
If they have attribute resets, character identity is lost. One solution to address this would be to make it a gradual thing; remove one attribute point to go into an attribute pool (so stat weights still apply) and being able to add one point a week or something. Then from a character identity standpoint it's a transition and effort, not as simple as "lol this build sux new build plx" and you're completely different.
I'm not suggesting that it NOT be an option at all. I just don't want it to be easy/often. It's also not me, more vocal people in these forums are on my side of the fence than yours in preference.
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Character rebuilds are important for one reason; the game is going to evolve and the mechanics of the game WILL change. With that in mind players initially built their characters based on one set of mechanics and when (not if) those change players should get an opportunity to reevaluate their character and change them if they desire. SWTOR handles this by every huge update that does major reworking of the game you are allowed one free rework of your skill choices (at least they did when I played). This is not unusual, it's available to everyone and is definitely fair (all these proclamations are made IMO).
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@Manaia What it comes to this attribute change and why people should even care if players have this chance option, there is only your reason which is not well-grounded at all. This does not surprise though because it is always easy to shout that something is not needed without giving any reasoning beside personal affections.
What it comes to your poll (if you refer to that), yeah I guess the result would not change much at the moment, even your opinion shows a little bit through the questions and how it leads the reader to choose the RPG.
Later when the sampling will be much more than 20 people I would be actually surprised if most players prefer RPG over Sandbox (without additional pointers). However, I think that the PvE planet and Beastmen concept appeals especially for RPG oriented players which is one of the reasons why roleplaying aspect is generally kept quite important. Moreover, it is also hard to place RPG and Sandbox against each other because usually themepark is the opponent for sandbox and RPG goes side by side with both of them.
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@Tuoni I gave one reason why it could have a negative impact on other players that choose to not reroll, you just chose to disregard it. That's more than just my "personal affections." I didn't bother thinking of or listing more because you asked why it would bother someone what other people do to their characters.
The poll got more votes! Both values are going up, Sandbox picked up some percentage points!
Edit: We're basically going back and forth though without bringing new value to the thread; just adding more bloat. So I'ma respectfully bow out after this post.
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@Farlander said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Character rebuilds are important for one reason; the game is going to evolve and the mechanics of the game WILL change. With that in mind players initially built their characters based on one set of mechanics and when (not if) those change players should get an opportunity to reevaluate their character and change them if they desire. SWTOR handles this by every huge update that does major reworking of the game you are allowed one free rework of your skill choices (at least they did when I played). This is not unusual, it's available to everyone and is definitely fair (all these proclamations are made IMO).
This is a really good point. Game mechanics will change and balancing problems are constantly "fixed" which leads to change the effectiveness of different builds, perhaps even quite often. Albion Online had this problem and the changes frustrated players a lot because the respeccing was made too hard. Later they have fixed this problem making the respeccing much more easier to complete. Without that fix many players would have been left, even some already did.
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni I gave one reason why it could have a negative impact on other players that choose to not reroll, you just chose to disregard it.
And for reason, because if this is a problem then it exists already. Personally not expecting to see this happen or very little at most. If anyone will face this in Fractured I hope they will not bend, they vote with their legs and finds better people to play with. Pressuring and bullying people is one thing I do not personally tolarate at all.
That's more than just my "personal affections."
True, that comment was more like in general.
The poll got more votes! Both values are going up, Sandbox picked up some percentage points!
That is good (for both).
Edit: We're basically going back and forth though without bringing new value to the thread; just adding more bloat. So I'ma respectfully bow out after this post.
Good idea. So was this bow a RP thing or just a polite act?
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@Tuoni Was a polite act, I don't RP in video games
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@Manaia said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Tuoni Was a polite act, I don't RP in video games
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@Manaia
Killteams and top pve parties where clear time matters wouldn't invite people without the best builds in the first place, regardless of respec being a thing or not. As for the guilds, I doubt anyone would require you to minmax. That is because in zvz it's far more important to have a balanced spread of classes (and a good shotcaller), than each DPS doing 10% more damage. In other words, a person who can change between tank and mdps, or healer and arcanist, will be more desirable than a minmaxed one who can only cover one role. This will allow a lot of flexibility for guild members. Your STR example is absolutely out of question because we'll have transport mounts.I don't really like being able to change a point every 2 weeks either because it is too slow. If my main class gets nerfed, I want to be able to change it immediately. In my opinion, we should get a free respec with every major patch (or every few months).
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I believe that is the whole point you cannot be good at everything you Ethier choose one or two or you become mediocre
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@Razvan said in Concerns related to the attributes:
@Manaia
In other words, a person who can change between tank and mdps, or healer and arcanist, will be more desirable than a minmaxed one who can only cover one role. This will allow a lot of flexibility for guild members.Alts cover this just as well, if not better. You can have all three of those ready at the go, instead of having to go through the respec process. In this kind of situation, I'd much rather have multiple alts on the ready rather than having to constantly respec. Though, I very much likely wouldn't be in that situation, but they do happen. Alts have A LOT of different uses, I'm not saying that alts are the end-all-be-all for respecing due to different alt uses or that me using them in this specific scenario means others will. I'm just saying that it's an in-game option that doesn't require instant respecing.
Your STR example is absolutely out of question because we'll have transport mounts.
Mount weight + your weight = more. More str is still more items. Also, not everyone is going to have a transport mount the minute they log into the game. While it's likely not applicable, it was a quick example that is more relatable for people who haven't been able to play Fractured yet. Would it have had been better to say int so the entire guild can farm wisps for relocate instead?
I don't really like being able to change a point every 2 weeks either because it is too slow.
It was a proof of concept, insert X amount of time. Perhaps make it a background-passive thing instead, the more stat redistribution the longer it takes. Then you log off with them for the counter to go and you can either do other things IRL or use an alt in-game while the time passes.
If my main class gets nerfed, I want to be able to change it immediately.
There are no classes. You mean if an ability is nerfed? You can change those immediately to use another one you have learned
I highly doubt they'll butcher an ENTIRE stat to the point where it's unplayable.In my opinion, we should get a free respec with every major patch (or every few months).
Having it be a paid service (like WoW as example) would be fine by me, in addition the a gradual change. It still gives the players an option to immediately respec if the gradual is too slow and they can't use an alt for that purpose.
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@dj35 said in Concerns related to the attributes:
I believe that is the whole point you cannot be good at everything you Ethier choose one or two or you become mediocre
Nah man, that's unacceptable in an MMO! Not only do you need to be able to be good at everything, but you need to be able to solo everything as well apparently!
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In other words, a person who can change between tank and mdps, or healer and arcanist, will be more desirable than a minmaxed one who can only cover one role. This will allow a lot of flexibility for guild members.
Alts cover this just as well, if not better. <...>
If being killed in pvp = getting respawned naked at the nearest point (not getting downed as in pve), which is the case in other such games, then being able to cover two adjacent roles reasonably well is really important because you can loot your team-mates and fill the missing roles. I mean, you could argue that people will come back but until they do your zerg is vulnerable and realistically a lot of them log off after they die about 2 times.
Anyway, I see where you are coming from and I agree that having alts is highly valuable, but I replied to your point that if we have respecs people will be peer pressured by guilds to respec characters. I doubt having respecs will make any difference in this regard.
Mount weight + your weight = more <...>
You were talking about guild transports. We don't know exactly the mount mechanics, but again, assuming that it's like in other similar games and you get a penalty for being dismounted and overweight, the guild transports work like this: they'll have a few scouts on fast mounts, just enough people on transport mounts to carry all the goods and everyone else in zvz gear acting as guard for the transport. If your guild asks you to respec int in order to farm wisps or anything weird like that, you should probably leave them.
There are no classes. You mean if an ability is nerfed? You can change those immediately to use another one you have learned
I highly doubt they'll butcher an ENTIRE stat to the point where it's unplayable.There will obviously be archetypes, but fair point.
I initially meant situations similar to PER no longer affecting mcrit or maccuracy, or being considerably scaled down, or overall meta changes. I don't know how fair of a point that is.Having it be a paid service (like WoW as example) would be fine by me, in addition the a gradual change. It still gives the players an option to immediately respec if the gradual is too slow and they can't use an alt for that purpose.
That's reasonable to me as well.
PS: I never said a character has to be good at everything, but I highly dislike situations in which meta changes and your main becomes borderline useless, as it happened to my single target mdps in Albion. This can be solved with seasonal respecs.
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@Razvan said in Concerns related to the attributes:
You were talking about guild transports.
To clarify, I was talking about transporting goods for the guild
Whether personal mounts, guild mounts, or otherwise.I highly dislike situations in which meta changes and your main becomes borderline useless, as it happened to my single target mdps in Albion.
This 100%! Patches that makes your character unplayable/useless is bad and hopefully never happens, unless their fixing unintended interactions/bugs/exploits of course. Though if people are playing for the TOP DAMAGE BUILD RAWR then their flavor of the month will change as skills are balanced/added/etc and they'll change with it. But for other people, as long as they're competitive/able to do what they want to do, those kinds of balancing tweaks shouldn't (hopefully?) affect them.
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One thing I would like to point out in this thread is that 1) choices should matter/have an impact, and 2) this variance as a result of your choice shouldn't have too much impact to overall balance. Of course, we may never be able to agree on what level of variance is acceptable, let alone what level of variance is acceptable from a reasonable/intelligently spec'd build.
What do I mean by this? Choices matter. This helps us both build a character identity and tilt us slightly further into a specific role. Note: slightly further.
The variance between these choices should not be significant to actual gameplay, but perhaps serve more QoL purposes for what you will be largely focused on doing. The difference between a few stat points should not be task breaking.
Alts should be fairly accessible in this game and not require much time to spin up and play, so I think alts could fill the role of drastically different characters and playstyles.
Now, to address the "If you don't like it, don't do it" argument...that is a very wrong and shortsighted argument. This is an mmo. EVERY design decision effects everyone. Whether they use it or not. They help shape the meta of every aspect of the game. It is, however, a valid point when discussing single player games.
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To add to my post and address the "then why limit our choice to change this on the fly?"
The gameplay answer to address that would be: Because then we will be compelled to do it every time we do something else. It would become a chore and a task every single time. The more "dedicated/hardcore" a player is, the more they will act on these compulsions, and the less fun it becomes.
And, while, that specific issue may be more of a psychological one, it doesn't negate the fact that it is one. People need not look further than WoW to see how some of their "optional" content led to so much burnout for players.
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@Mindark You have some flaws in your reasons.
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Your account is limited on the number of characters you can build. I do believe they give you the option to buy more slots but there comes a point at which you have too many characters, Are we supposed to buy a new slot every time they roll out new game mechanics that nerfs our character build to the point that your toon is shot?
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it won't be easy to "spin up" a new toon if you mean advance them. The knowledge system, unless it share as across all characters, is going to be a very lengthy process. I akin it to the datacrons in SWTOR. I didn't know any players personally that had everyone of them unlocked and none across all their characters. Knowledge nodes are going to take alot of time and the fact that my character would get nerfed to the point they are no fun to play is a point at which I would have to think about giving up the game if I thought I had to spend weeks rerolling another toon to have fun again.
Respecing, if available to everyone, has absolutely no bearing on another player. Since all characters level horizontally no one will have any advantage respecing. It's a courtesy to players to help them make changes on their characters so that they have more fun with their playing experience. It's in the best interests to the devs to keep players around and enjoying the game rather than quit over their main/favorite character no longer being much fun because of the regrets of a poor decision on a choice they made or because the game changes in such a way decisions they made are no longer valid.
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@Farlander said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Respecing, if available to everyone, has absolutely no bearing on another player. Since all characters level horizontally no one will have any advantage respecing. It's a courtesy to players to help them make changes on their characters so that they have more fun with their playing experience. It's in the best interests to the devs to keep players around and enjoying the game rather than quit over their main/favorite character no longer being much fun because of the regrets of a poor decision on a choice they made or because the game changes in such a way decisions they made are no longer valid.
I wanted to highlight few points. Having an option to respec attributes does not offer advantage over other players so it does not have negative impacts. Avoiding player frustration is also somethig what developers should taken account when planning QoL things.
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@Mindark said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Now, to address the "If you don't like it, don't do it" argument...that is a very wrong and shortsighted argument. This is an mmo. EVERY design decision effects everyone. Whether they use it or not. They help shape the meta of every aspect of the game. It is, however, a valid point when discussing single player games.
No, it is actually not. Every design decision may affect on everyone but the effects are usually positive so why would that be a problem. A feature like 'possibility to reroll attributes' will be a huge QoL thing, it does not offer advantage over other players and it prevents player frustration. Everyone has this chance but it is still optional if someone decides not to use that for any reasons. At the moment the reason looks like to be a character identity which is quite small roleplaying feature tbh, everyone can cherish their character's identity if they want to, however, I do not know why anyone should care about other players characters' identities.
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@Farlander said in Concerns related to the attributes:
Respecing, if available to everyone, has absolutely no bearing on another player.
You've clearly not read my response I made to Tuoni regarding mega guilds "forcing" you to respec to how they want. Or peer pressure amongst any group of friends to have someone fit the role they want. Tuoni basically said "I don't care, so it's not a real issue." Are you saying that too? That if it doesn't impact you it's not a real possibility?
