Travelling is "complicated" to be mild
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Disclaimer: Full flaged fan here this is my constructive criticism not an attack or anything stupid and mean like that.
I remember when back in a day (far back) @Prometheus talked about how travelling would be diferent in Fractured and things would actually be far and going from A to B would not be so simple and there should be no fastravel or something on the lines of that. So on and so forth
Well having said that and having played the game a couple of times..... I'm not a big fan of how this is turning out to be. Going from the spawn city to valey of shadows is a loooooooooong and boring task that took us over 30 minutes I believe. Without the auto run buttom (
That we desperatly need! Dev team please help!). Right now this task literaly hurts the fingers! to keep pressing down for so long is not fun.I remember He also saying that we would get speed bonus for travelling on the roads which I Don't believe is yet implemented and if it is it could use a buff for it's unoticible. And I must also consider that we should see mounts comming on the future of the game. Those two should hopefully bring great improvement to that aspect of gameplay!
It's important to note that I see a lot of people complaining about this issue in the chat.
Now, since it's only Alpha and we barelly have content, there`s only a hand full of interest places, or diferent biomes you can visit on Myr but they are spread in the vast ramndomly generated Map. When you get to areas where the Devs have put some work into like the spawn city, heartwood, the last part of the valey of shadows when you pass the bridges. Those places are stuning and varied! it's great. But to get there you go through extensive and endless distances in only 3 maybe 4 different biomes all looking the same. Like I said it's not fun.
I wonder If the devs made it this way to give room for future content or if it was just to show how big the map could be.
Anyway I hope they adress that in the future and make it better some how! I wouldn't mind walking for 10 minutes to get somewhere far but more than that is a bit much IMO
Keep up the great work the game look beautifull! I'm very happy about it!
(Edit): Not advocating for fast travel teleporting style but more of a balancing of travalling times. In a manner that gives the atmosphere long travelling times anable like very well point out by @Kralith , without being to extreme to the point it becomes anoying that's all
@Kralith said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
There are also another big points why these fast travel is not good for such a game:
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PVE: very fast travel options lead to less player interactivity, its a bit like in real world, where you take a seat to your car in your garage, drive to your work/supermarket/cinema where you just place your car into the underground car park, take the elevator and vice versa at the evening if you want to go back home.
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PVE: just teleporting to the POIs lead to not to look to left and right, but to be able to tell everyone after 2 weeks of the game "I am done with the game, because i played it through."
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PVP: no preparation time for defenders, because the offender just can jump to your place and fight you down.
We are in a big open world, where it matters, what you want to do and how your plan your travels. It would take much atmosphere out of the game, if we just be able to jump from A to B on the other side of the map.
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Ya, auto-run would be very nice.
At the moment, if you can unlock Enrage, it helps a lot.
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@PedroBillyMattos said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
I wouldn't mind walking for 10 minutes to get somewhere far but more than that is a bit much IMO
You can get somewhere in 10 minutes of walking. Or are you implying that you should get from the starter zone to the Vale in 10 minutes? That sounds like a terribly small map to me and I certainly wouldn't want that. There are plenty of ways to break it up - walk 10 minutes to Heartwood and do some grinding, then walk 10 more minutes to another location, keep bunny hopping and spreading the activities. Asking to either move four times faster or make the map four times smaller isn't going to be beneficial long term for the game in my opinion.
100% for an autorun button though! I've considered rebinding my game controller to play this game and see how that feels, might make the running a little more forgiving.
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@Manaia I have made a Macro with logitech Ghub and for me it's fine now.
Sorry it was 30 min + from heartwood no spawn city so it~s actually worse.
How do you feel about just walking non-stop for 40+ min in game before you get to your your destination? That's 40+ minutes before you get from your house to the hunting place, and then a friend calls back to his house that's actually an additional 15 min past your house so 1 hour walking?
Do you walk back because as you seem to defend is benficial long term for the game or do you die to respawn at your place?
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@Roccandil what monster gives enrage?
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@PedroBillyMattos said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
@Manaia I have made a Macro with logitech Ghub and for me it's fine now.
Sorry it was 30 min + from heartwood no spawn city so it~s actually worse.
How do you feel about just walking non-stop for 40+ min in game before you get to your your destination? That's 40+ minutes before you get from your house to the hunting place, and then a friend calls back to his house that's actually an additional 15 min past your house so 1 hour walking?
Do you walk back because as you seem to defend is benficial long term for the game or do you die to respawn at your place?
I actually made that journey as soon as I got out of the tutorial town
I went all the way to the Vale to get my house, did some killing as I did to get knowledge on the way. Once there, I built my 5x5 house, then helped my friend get his plot and house setup. Once that was done, we walked BACK to Heartwood to grind 100% knowledge, then I walked back to the starter zone to meet my brother the next day. From there, walked all the way back to the Vale.I take the suicide teleport about once a test period. There is currently no death penalty in the game so there's no reason not to take advantage of it to return home; and if there is a penalty in the future then I'd very likely return on foot without complaining. In it's current state though, it doesn't make your travel to the place initially any faster or closer. So it saves twice the travel time instead of four times the travel time.
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@PedroBillyMattos said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
@Roccandil what monster gives enrage?
I don't remember specifically, but it's one of the goblins in Goblin Hills (and not the shaman).
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@PedroBillyMattos it's the enforcer goblin
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It's pretty hard to judge travel times right now since mounts haven't been implemented yet.
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I don't think it's a problem. The world is still pretty empty, content is still being developed. There aren't many games that allow you to warp around to any other place of the game in under 10 minutes. Curb your expectations. From tutorial to "end game" zone should take some time. And there should be some distance between far places. We don't need to be able to "teleport" everywhere. Let people explore the world.
More complete content will fill in these gaps. And setting proper expectations.
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There are also another big points why these fast travel is not good for such a game:
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PVE: very fast travel options lead to less player interactivity, its a bit like in real world, where you take a seat to your car in your garage, drive to your work/supermarket/cinema where you just place your car into the underground car park, take the elevator and vice versa at the evening if you want to go back home.
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PVE: just teleporting to the POIs lead to not to look to left and right, but to be able to tell everyone after 2 weeks of the game "I am done with the game, because i played it through."
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PVP: no preparation time for defenders, because the offender just can jump to your place and fight you down.
We are in a big open world, where it matters, what you want to do and how your plan your travels. It would take much atmosphere out of the game, if we just be able to jump from A to B on the other side of the map.
Of course, for testing purposes it could be possible to give temporary such options. But in my opinion it is important to see the traveltimes, and see, how you can balance them later with mount travels and other possibilities.
It would be quite boring, if i could jump in no time a distance that would have been otherwise taken hours to travel.
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@Specter Thanks Specter! Any coments on the road walking speed boost? Hopefully the mounts will aliviate this issue!
@Mindark Do you like the current travelling times? Are you happy about it? (assuming you are testing the game and know what i'm talking about). Well if yes or no that is your opinion about it. So don't tell me to Curb my expectations or to set "
PROPERexpectations" as if your expectation is the "proper" one and mine is improper or whatever.This is how I feel about it: I don't like travelling times the way it is now for me it's too much. I'd like it to be tuned down a notch! And I'm voicing this feedback so don't condecend me telling me your opinion on the subject is the PROPER one.
You may like to boringly walk your charachter 1 hour non stop to get somewhere, you may think that is the right thing, I don't and I see other people feeling the same way.
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@Kralith See! This is a PROPER reply! hahaha
great points dude! and I can see the apeal behind these arguments. I don't advocate for fast travel teleporting style but more of a balancing of travalling times. In a manner that gives this atmosphere you are mentioning without being to extreme to the point it becomes anoying that's all
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@PedroBillyMattos First of all, I like the idea of some sort of run toggle. Not pathing or anything, but maybe following your cursor. And mounts are coming to the game.
I think the current travelling times are fine. If we compare it to a game like Vanilla WoW. Its continents were far larger and took far longer to travel. If you started in Undercity (far top of the map), you wouldn't be able to get to Stranglethorn Vale (far bottom of the map) in 10 minutes. And it would be unreasonable to expect that. Even using flight paths, you couldn't do it.
"So don't tell me to Curb my expectations or to set "PROPER expectations" as if your expectation is the "proper" one and mine is improper or whatever."
Except my expectations are built around what the game is, whereas your expectations are built around what you want the game to be. This is a huge, open world game (and this is only one section of the game). Not a CoD map.
Let's think about this problem honestly. The only objective measurements I can get from your original post is that 10 minutes is a sweet spot for you to get from point A to point B. Is this your ideal number? If you want to look for foxes/deer/rabbits, it should take 10 mins? From where ever you are? If you want to kill goblins, it should take you 10 minutes from where ever you are? If you want to get to the top of a mountain peak, it should take you 10 minutes from where ever you are? How much time are you willing to invest to get from any conceivable point in the game to another? 10 minutes? This question is one you need to ask yourself. If that answer is "yes, 10 minutes," then, fine. I would fundamentally disagree that this game should be that small. If that answer is "no, depending where you are and where you're going, it should take longer than that," then that is what I mean about setting expectations. We would fundamentally agree on this point.
I'll ask a few questions and give my answers to them in italics. I hope to get your honest feedback, too.
If point A and B are the literal furthest points apart from the current map, how long should it take to traverse? I think 2-3 hours is a good amount of time for this with the current map. This creates a lot of opportunities to explore and find things. Having a content rich continent is important here.
Should this time remain constant when more content is added? Would we need to be able to travel faster when there is more land? I think there could be some cases of instant teleportation, for example, between planets? And maybe a form of fast travel between specific points, like ships/trains/etc. to link hubs together. Outside of that, I think travel can stay the same. Especially when mounts will be in.
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@Mindark Ok so let me elaborate on what I belive would be better.
Considering Myr is only one piece of land of the Human world (there will be more) and not the whole world I think your proposal of 2-3 hours is madness, no offence. I would set that time with mounts and road speed bonus to be closer to 40min - 1h20. Ye travelling long distances should take time but travelling is also boring and many players don't have 3 hours of play time to spare just to get somewhere. Not 3 hours playing and having fun, no, 3 hours starring at the screen trying not to get killed by the mobs and navigating the map. That is important!
15 minutes walking without a mount gets you through a loooot of ground man. So i~m not talking about a small map I'm talking about adjustments on travel timeFor me, from heartwood to shadows with mount and road speed bonus should bearound 15 min. You get the burden of lenghy travelling without beeing excessive. and that's my opinion.
The important question I believe is:
Is there a majority of players that thinks like me or like you?
With that answer than the devs can think about how to address this. And I believe you'll agree with me that this is an important gameplay experience issue.I belive smaller map with good quality is better than gigantic map of emptiness. There must be a balance.
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@PedroBillyMattos If you don't have 3 hours to play, don't make a trek that takes 3 hours. Do something within the constraints of the time you have. So, if you think that heartwood to shadows should be 15 minutes while mounted and on the roads, then perfect. Once roads and mounts are working, then we might actually be somewhere at that place. In that case, my "proposal" of 2-3 hours to traverse all of Myr is close to accurate as your heartwood to shadows.
It sounds like you want travel to be quicker, and not the size of the map. Making things smaller (either by physical size or time) carries implications in a large world like this. Physically, resources will have to be more limited, so players will have a more difficult time doing things. Did you play in the last open test? After a while, there were no additional plots to claim. A smaller map will make that problem worse. As far as making travel speed faster, already we can see that the world isn't keeping up with our current travel speed. If we moved four times faster, then things might not spawn in at all (hunting for certain animals? good luck!).
Also, the devs might want the game to be played based off time vs distance. Maybe they want you to spend an hour getting somewhere from a popular hub. Then, even if travel speed were four times faster than it is now, things will be spaced out four times as much. It would be naive to think that travel time is not considered in game design.
Side note: my opinion and your opinion ultimately don't matter how the devs want to build their game. They should build the game how they see fit and not be swayed by a bunch of players that don't know what they want.
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I also wanted to point out that your opinion has already changed, perhaps you've curbed some expectations?
@PedroBillyMattos said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
Going from the spawn city to valey of shadows is a loooooooooong and boring task that took us over 30 minutes.
For reference, spawn city is just west of Slithering Moors. Also, to note, this route is ~80% of the length of Myr.
@PedroBillyMattos said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
I wouldn't mind walking for 10 minutes to get somewhere far but more than that is a bit much IMO.
To make the trek from starting zone to the entrance of the Vale in 10 minutes would allow one to travel from tip to tip in under 15 minutes. Walking. I'm going to assume that would be a sub-10 min travel on a mount or roads. I would also argue that defining "somewhere far" is a function of the status quo time spent travelling rather than distance, and that it is literally impossible to travel "somewhere far" in less than 10 minutes.
From the original post, I infer that walking from west of Slithering Moors to, I will assume, the entrance of Vale of Shadows should take around 10 minutes. Perfect. Those are solid numbers. But I get confused when...
@PedroBillyMattos said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
From heartwood to shadows with mount and road speed bonus should be around 15 min.
My confusion with this is that your ideal scenario, you are covering ~80% (napkin math) of the distance in 50% more time using the (assumed) fastest method of travel vs your initial proposal of 10 minutes to get somewhere "far."
I don't think it's fair to complain about one of the longest routes you would take in this alpha is taking too long. My two cents. And probably the last two cents, as your opinions of these distances, speeds, and time spent seem to be changing.
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@Kralith said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
It would be quite boring, if i could jump in no time a distance that would have been otherwise taken hours to travel.
I enjoy systems in which you travel once to major locations to unlock teleporters there, and then you can teleport around without having to repeat the trip. Repetition is boring!
On the other hand, I can see the appeal of feeling the "bigness" of the world through long travel.
This works better if you don't need to repeat travel too often, and it helps if there is good support for camping in the wild (Wurm Online did that well; you could set a tent as a respawn point, for instance).
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@Roccandil Yeah, i am agreeing, some Fast Travel Spots can be good and some nice feature to prevent several annoyances.
In Salem the Game we had also hours of traveling, if you wanted to find the hidden witch town of someone far in the Darkness.
But there was some very few Travelpoints, where you could start to travel from.
Also it was possible to fast travel from your Home to the NPC Town.
It was even possible to travel from everywhere in the wild back to your home, but you had to empty your inventory before.
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@Mindark said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
@PedroBillyMattos If you don't have 3 hours to play, don't make a trek that takes 3 hours. Do something within the constraints of the time you have.
That is just indiference twards something that is a big bummer for a lot of players. And than I understand the way you think but I firmly dissagree, especially on the following
@Mindark said in Travelling is "complicated" to be mild:
Side note: my opinion and your opinion ultimately don't matter how the devs want to build their game. They should build the game how they see fit and not be swayed by a bunch of players that don't know what they want.
Even though I believe devs should be carefull as to have some firmness and exercise leadership on the game design choices, ultimetly we are the consumers and there must be a balance in that and they should listen to the playerbase. Their goal is mostly to please the playerbase. If they don't, they fail. That's why I said If there is a majority in the playerbase that does not apreciate the lenghy travelling. they they should change it.
This is what DYnamight has to say about it:
"By being part of it[Alpha], you’ll have the unique occasion to be able to shape the foundation of the game through your feedback!"
Source: https://fracturedmmo.com/development-roadmap-from-alpha-to-release/Like you corectly noted I'm not arguing for small maps but for shorter (not short, I said shorter) travel times, not overall movment speed, TRAVELLING speed, with mounts, ON the roads.
The key thing I want to point out in this topic is that travelling for long times is boring and this negative aspect should be heavily taken under consideration. I don't like and I'm not the only one.
On a diferent side of a diferent subject, talking about the size of the map. I don't think it's a good idea to have a huge map UNLESS it's filled with density of content in the future. The point being that a vast area of low content density is actually a bad thing.
This principle is very well discussed in this video:
Why Cyberpunk 2077's SMALLER MAP Is Actually A Good thing
